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[213.106.115.109]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h14sm18405997wbo.7.2011.10.03.01.17.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 03 Oct 2011 01:17:04 -0700 (PDT) References: <001401cc80dd$21b80ea0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <002001cc80ed$f37be7d0$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <005301cc811a$c14eee10$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <4E88E56C.9030602@toya.net.pl> From: Roger Lapthorn X-Mailer: iPod Mail (8F190) In-Reply-To: <4E88E56C.9030602@toya.net.pl> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 09:17:40 +0100 To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPod Mail 8F190) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Dreamers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-20247634 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: S X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:446420160:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m271.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1dc1474e896fe954bc X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --Apple-Mail-1-20247634 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Piotr Thank you for these numbers. When considering an earth electrode pair "anten= na" in the context of radiated (rather than conduction) signalling, this mus= t mean the effective size of the (electrically short) dipole is considerably= larger electrically than it's physical size would suggest. I think earth e= lectrode pair antennas warrant further testing as TX antennas at 8.97kHz. As= far as I know only DK7FC/P has tried this using a 600m baseline.=20 73s Roger GXBM -- Via my iPod Touch 4g -- On 2 Oct 2011, at 23:27, Piotr Mlynarski wrote: > W dniu 2011-10-02 17:48, mal hamilton pisze: >>=20 >> IE >> Dreamers, alias snails es crocodiles. I suppose they do have something in= common, especially the operator who works mostly underground following gas p= ipes and water pipes, and then gets confused at roundabouts >> Keep smiling !! and come up for air except you are nuclear propelled >> =20 >> g3kev >>=20 >=20 > Hello Roger, LF/VLF "Dreamers" .. >=20 > i will also make a reference to your " underground work" though it will be= slightly different from Mal observations.... >=20 > Very often the medium over which the radio wave propagates ( soil, sea wa= ter) is regarded as a semiconducting uniform medium characterized by > its dielectric permittivity and conductivity - for such a model rather ba= sic physics of dielectrics can be adopted. > Therefore, we can use the concept of a complex dielectric permittivity whi= ch results in a few simple eqns. from that equations > we get some numbers which i would like to present here.=20 > it is very likely that you already know those numbers/estimates but for me= some of them came as a sort of surprise..... >=20 > Some introductory remarks: A wave propagating in a free space is attenuate= d in a medium and is strongly shortened. We can define so-called=20 > "penetration depth" as a depth at wich the amplitude of radio-wave is e ti= mes smaller (2.718...) than the amplitude in a free space > ( reciprocal of attenuation factor)=20 > Also , [it was the most interesting to me] , we can estimate ( connection= with Leontowicz conditions, boundary continuity eqns. etc..) how many times= the horizontal component > of a wave electric field in a medium is greater than its vertical count= erpart. At the same time this quantity shows how many times > the vertical component of E field in a free space is greater than horizon= tal component of a free space E-field vector.=20 > Finally the numbers.. >=20 > for the sake of curiosity i took the salt water at first ( Mal was talking= something about nuclear drive/subs) :) >=20 > eps(r) :81 and sigma ( conductivity of a salt water: 5 Siemens/m) > of course, the sigma depends strongly of salinity sigma =3D 5 is just a r= easonable example=20 >=20 > f =3D 136.172 kHz=20 > lambda in a free space: 2201.6 meters > lambda in a medium: 3.81 meters > penetration depth: 0.61 meters > H/V ratio in a medium: 812.7 >=20 >=20 > f =3D 8.97 kHz=20 > lambda in a free space: 33421.7 meters > lambda in a medium: 14.9 meters > penetration depth: 2.376 meters > H/V ratio in a medium: 3166.5 >=20 >=20 >=20 > f =3D 82 Hz ( ZEVS)=20 > lambda in a free space: 3656 KILOmeters > lambda in a medium: 156 meters > penetration depth: 24.8 meters > H/V ratio in a medium: 33118.0 >=20 > and now the soil: >=20 > i assumed epsilon(r) =3D 4 > sigma =3D 0.003 S/m / it is supposed to be something between dry soil an= d slightly wet/moistured or so.. / >=20 > f =3D 136.172 kHz=20 > lambda in a free space: 2201.6 meters > lambda in a medium: 155.6 meters > penetration depth: 25.0 meters > H/V ratio in a medium: 19.9 >=20 > f =3D 8.97 kHz=20 > lambda in a free space: 33421.7 meters > lambda in a medium: 609.2 meters > penetration depth: 97.0 meters > H/V ratio in a medium: 77.6=20 >=20 > =20 > 73, P= iotr, sq7mpj >=20 > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-1-20247634 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Piotr

Thank you for these numbers. When considering an earth electrode pair "antenna" in the context of radiated (rather than conduction) signalling, this must mean the effective size of the (electrically short) dipole is considerably larger electrically than it's physical size would suggest.  I think earth electrode pair antennas warrant further testing as TX antennas at 8.97kHz. As far as I know only DK7FC/P has tried this using a 600m baseline. 

73s
Roger GXBM

-- Via my iPod Touch 4g --

On 2 Oct 2011, at 23:27, Piotr Mlynarski <sq7mpj@toya.net.pl> wrote:

W dniu 2011-10-02 17:48, mal hamilton pisze:
IE
Dreamers, alias snails es crocodiles. I suppose they do have something in common, especially the operator who works mostly underground following gas pipes and water pipes, and then gets confused at roundabouts
Keep smiling !! and come up for air except you are nuclear propelled
 
g3kev


Hello Roger, LF/VLF "Dreamers" ..

i will also make a reference to your " underground work" though it will be slightly different  from Mal observations....

Very often the medium over which the  radio wave propagates ( soil, sea water) is regarded as a semiconducting uniform medium characterized by
 its dielectric permittivity and conductivity - for such a model rather basic physics of dielectrics can be adopted.
Therefore, we can use the concept of a complex dielectric permittivity which results in a few simple eqns. from that equations
 we get some numbers which i would like to present here.
it is very likely that you already know those numbers/estimates but for me some of them came as a sort of surprise.....

Some introductory remarks: A wave propagating in a free space is attenuated in a medium and is strongly shortened. We can define so-called
"penetration depth" as a depth at wich the amplitude of radio-wave is e times smaller (2.718...) than the amplitude in a free space
( reciprocal of attenuation factor)
Also , [it was the most interesting  to me] , we can estimate ( connection with Leontowicz conditions, boundary continuity eqns. etc..) how many times the horizontal component
of a wave  electric field  in a medium  is greater than its vertical counterpart. At the same time this quantity shows how many times
 the vertical component of E field in a free space is greater than horizontal component of a free space E-field vector.
Finally the numbers..

for the sake of curiosity i took the salt water at first ( Mal was talking something about nuclear drive/subs) :)

eps(r) :81 and sigma ( conductivity of a salt water: 5 Siemens/m)
 of course, the sigma depends strongly of salinity  sigma = 5 is just a reasonable example

f = 136.172 kHz
lambda in a free space: 2201.6 meters
lambda in a medium: 3.81 meters
penetration depth: 0.61 meters
H/V ratio in a medium: 812.7


f = 8.97 kHz
lambda in a free space: 33421.7 meters
lambda in a medium: 14.9 meters
penetration depth: 2.376 meters
H/V ratio in a medium: 3166.5



f =  82 Hz ( ZEVS)
lambda in a free space: 3656 KILOmeters
lambda in a medium: 156 meters
penetration depth: 24.8 meters
H/V ratio in a medium: 33118.0

and now  the soil:

 i assumed epsilon(r) = 4
 sigma = 0.003 S/m  / it is supposed to be something between dry soil and slightly wet/moistured  or so.. /

f = 136.172 kHz
lambda in a free space: 2201.6 meters
lambda in a medium: 155.6 meters
penetration depth: 25.0 meters
H/V ratio in a medium: 19.9

f = 8.97 kHz
lambda in a free space: 33421.7 meters
lambda in a medium: 609.2 meters
penetration depth: 97.0 meters
H/V ratio in a medium: 77.6

         
                                                                  73, Piotr, sq7mpj

                      
 
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