Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-df06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 240F638000099; Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1R0How-0005Oy-Uw for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:53:30 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1R0How-0005Op-4C for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:53:30 +0100 Received: from mail-bw0-f43.google.com ([209.85.214.43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1R0Hot-0000Yr-Of for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:53:30 +0100 Received: by bkbzv15 with SMTP id zv15so5869301bkb.16 for ; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QalAen/MZIsaamsQQcU2ffJ/huYQDH4AnUwYnk59g14=; b=B4Qmb17wcnVWl/OOMV2zbxMg2HnENm4PmCUxaWI9V9rS6jBCdDmW/H8MHIfkpMFkRz AVxUYGyiLPa1XDaSL1PEQwec3tZECVwH/1fkNtHnXK3afu98g9q7yeh0dxI8LaeQMFiR ASF9WpRnIi9/1q0z0lwNDplLnkZ2XIdwpquaw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.130.138 with SMTP id t10mr1740842bks.10.1315162401538; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.77.13 with HTTP; Sun, 4 Sep 2011 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <77DE9B8329834C6882925783A5F39A72@White> <001b01cc6af5$a8f74190$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> <002001cc6b1c$d573e3a0$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 21:53:21 +0300 Message-ID: From: Chris 4X1RF To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015173fe848c4041104ac221b71 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:480687552:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d239.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40da4e63c96b121d X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none --0015173fe848c4041104ac221b71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Markus, Jay, LF, Congratulations for the positive result last night! If I could receive Jay here or in YO, guess we'd have a chance to prove your dip theory Markus given the one hour time difference between us. I'll follow your eventual decision to QSY and adjust accordingly. 73s Chris 4X1RF On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Markus Vester wrote: > ** > Ok, Jay. The effect is intruiging. The Russian line on 775 tells me that > the receiver had stayed in lock all night, so it must be real. > > Yes it would be good to try the same parameters again. There's a lot of QRN > now, but the forecast says it should quiet down later tonight. > > I'm not hooked to 780.30, just left the slot where it was after I > transmitted near Chris' Loran line in Haifa. So in case we would really > cause a problem for Mitch we might as well move down a tick, even a > posteriori as long as it's between 774 and 781. I think Chris could do the > same both in 4X and YO if required. > > Actually after John's email I tried to look for a trace of VE3OT as well. > There were some bits below the Eu Loran line 780.419, but nothing > conclusive. Do you happen to know his precise QRG? > > Best 73, and have a nice Sunday > > Markus (DF6NM) > > > *From:* jrusgrove@comcast.net > *Sent:* Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:08 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 > > Markus > > Yes ... it was a continuous transmission with no frequency step. > Interesting observation on midnight crossing the middle of the path. > > Picked 200 watts as a starting point to see how well it was received. The > transmitter here is capable of 1 kW output. It appears that only your > grabber was able to 'see' the signal. > > Weather permitting, I can run further tests tonight. Do you have anything > in mind? Might be interesting to do a repeat of last night's test to see if > the midnight/midpoint anomoly shows up. > > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Markus Vester > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:56 AM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 > > Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am really happy about this result. Attached > is a spectrum graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT, with about 12 to 14 dB > SNR in the 0.438 mHz FFT. > > Do I understand you correctly in that you transmitted a continuous > carrier, without a frequency step? Then the apparent 3.8 mHz shift must have > been a transient propagational Doppler effect. Remarkably, this lines > up with observations of John Andrew's tests in 2006, which had also shown > two long stable runs, with a dip and rapid phase change inbetween. The dip > seems to roughly coincide with midnight crossing over the middle of the > path, but I'm not aware of any simple physical explanation for this. > > BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to mine: I have about 200 W > available into a Marconi antenna, which is about 0.1 percent efficient now, > and up to twice that in a cold winter night. > > Best regards, and thanks again for the test > Markus (DF6NM) > > *From:* jrusgrove@comcast.net > *Sent:* Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 > > Markus > > The mystery signal was from WD2XNS ... you have the time and frequency > perfectly correct and the color DF also provides corroborating evidence. > Note that there was no break in the transmission. The frequency is > controlled by a GPS disciplined oscillator (accuracy about 13 ppt). > Transmitter power was 200 watts ... radiated power is not known. During > winter, with frozen ground, additional radials, lower R and less > foliage, the radiated power would have been about 0.5 watt. Expect last > night's test would be at least 3 - 6 dB (maybe more) below that level. > > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Markus Vester > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:45 AM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 > > The mystery signal was received between about 0:15 and 3:30 on > 137780.310, with a 3.8 mHz downward shift from about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat > reminiscent of a DFCW "GM". Greenish colour indicates southwesterly origin. > The attached screenshot was taken at 8 UT, timescale is 10 minutes per FFT. > > I checked the other available TA grabbers around 4 UT, but no trace of the > mystery signal. > > 73, and have a nice sunday, > Markus (DF6NM) > > *From:* Markus Vester > *Sent:* Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 > > LF, > > there seems to be a signal on 137780.300 Hz, about 60 nV/m here. > http://www.alice-dsl.net/df6nm/grabber/TAnarrow.jpg > > Wondering whose it may be... > > Best wishes, > Markus > > --0015173fe848c4041104ac221b71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Markus, Jay, LF,

Congratulations for the positive r= esult last night!

If I could receive Jay here or in YO, guess we= 9;d have a chance to prove your dip theory Markus given the one hour time d= ifference between us. I'll follow your eventual decision to QSY and adj= ust accordingly.


73s
Chris 4X1RF


On Sun, Se= p 4, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.com> wrote:
Ok, Jay. The effect is intruiging. The= Russian line=20 on 775 tells me that the receiver had stayed in lock all night, so it must = be=20 real.
=A0
Yes it would be good to try the same p= arameters=20 again. There's a lot of QRN now, but the forecast says it should quiet = down=20 later tonight.
=A0
I'm not hooked to 780.30, just lef= t the slot where=20 it was after I transmitted=A0near=A0Chris' Loran line in Haifa. So in= =20 case=A0we would really cause a problem for Mitch we might as well move down= a=20 tick, even a posteriori as long as it's between 774 and 781. I think Ch= ris could=20 do the same both in 4X and YO if required.
=A0
Actually after=20 John's email=A0I tried to look for=A0a trace of VE3OT as well. There we= re=20 some bits below the=A0Eu Loran line 780.419, but nothing conclusive.=A0Do= =20 you happen to know his precise QRG?
=A0
Best 73, and have a nice Sunday=
=A0
Markus (DF6NM)

=A0

Markus
=A0
Yes ... it was a continuous transmissi= on with no=20 frequency step. Interesting observation on=A0midnight crossing the middle o= f=20 the path.
=A0
Picked=A0200 watts as a starting point= to see=20 how well it was received.=A0The transmitter here is capable of 1 kW=20 output.=A0It appears that only your grabber was able to 'see' the s= ignal.=20
=A0
Weather permitting, I can run further = tests=20 tonight. Do you have anything in mind? Might be interesting to do a repeat = of=20 last night's test=A0to see if the midnight/midpoint=A0anomoly shows up.= =20
=A0
Jay W1VD=A0 WD2XNS=A0=20 WE2XGR/2=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:= 56=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on=20 137780.3

Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I a= m really=20 happy about this result. Attached = is a spectrum=20 graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT, =A0with about 12 to 14 dB SNR in the= =20 0.438 mHz FFT.
=A0
Do I understand=A0you correctly in that you=20 transmitted a continuous carrier, without a frequency step? Then the appa= rent=20 3.8 mHz shift must have been a transient propagational=A0Doppler effect.= =20 Remarkably,=A0this lines up=A0with observations of John Andrew's test= s=20 in 2006,=A0which had also shown two long stable runs, with a dip=A0and=20 rapid phase change inbetween. The dip seems to roughly=A0coincide with=20 midnight crossing over the middle of the path, but I'm not aware of a= ny simple=20 physical explanation for this.
= <= font face=3D"Arial">
=A0
BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to = mine: I=20 have about 200 W available into a=A0Marconi antenna,=A0which is about=20 0.1 percent efficient now, and up to twice that in a cold winter=20 night.
=A0
Best regards, and thanks again for the=20 test
Markus (DF6NM)=20
<= font face=3D"Arial">
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

Markus
=A0
The mystery signal was from WD2XNS .= .. you have=20 the time and frequency perfectly correct and the color DF also provides= =20 corroborating evidence. Note that there was no break in the=20 transmission.=A0The frequency is controlled by a GPS disciplined=20 oscillator=A0(accuracy about 13 ppt). Transmitter power was 200 watts ...= =20 radiated power is not known.=A0During winter, with frozen ground,=20 additional radials, lower R=A0and less foliage,=A0the radiated power=20 would have been about 0.5 watt.=A0Expect last night's test would be a= t=20 least=A03 - 6 dB (maybe more) below that level.
=A0
Jay W1VD=A0 WD2XNS=A0 WE2XGR/2
=A0=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 = 4:45=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on= =20 137780.3

The mystery signal was received be= tween about=20 0:15 and 3:30 on 137780.310,=A0with a 3.8 mHz downward shift=A0from=20 about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat reminiscent of=A0a DFCW "GM". G= reenish=20 colour indicates southwesterly origin. The attached=A0 screenshot was= =20 taken at 8 UT, timescale is=A010 minutes per FFT.
=A0
I checked the other available TA g= rabbers=20 around 4 UT, but no trace of the mystery signal.
=A0
73, and have a nice sunday,=
Markus (DF6NM)=A0=A0=A0
<= font face=3D"Arial"><= font face=3D"Arial">
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM
Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

LF,
=A0
there seems to be a signal on 1377= 80.300 Hz,=20 about 60 nV/m here.
=A0
Wondering whose it may be...
=A0
Best wishes,
Markus

--0015173fe848c4041104ac221b71--