Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dl03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 1F9E438000118; Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1R0Gze-0002Ra-B5 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:00:30 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1R0Gzd-0002RR-LW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:00:29 +0100 Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.40]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1R0Gzb-0006xl-8o for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:00:29 +0100 Received: from mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.65]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p84I0P1E027647 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:00:25 -0400 Received: from White (nrbg-4dbe6ba7.pool.mediaWays.net [77.190.107.167]) by mtaout-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 4502DE0000C6 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <77DE9B8329834C6882925783A5F39A72@White> <001b01cc6af5$a8f74190$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> <002001cc6b1c$d573e3a0$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:00:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:463616928:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01CC6B3D.4C30B7A0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:483980480:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4ad14e63bcf748c7 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01CC6B3D.4C30B7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, Jay. The effect is intruiging. The Russian line on 775 tells me that = the receiver had stayed in lock all night, so it must be real. Yes it would be good to try the same parameters again. There's a lot of = QRN now, but the forecast says it should quiet down later tonight. I'm not hooked to 780.30, just left the slot where it was after I = transmitted near Chris' Loran line in Haifa. So in case we would really = cause a problem for Mitch we might as well move down a tick, even a = posteriori as long as it's between 774 and 781. I think Chris could do = the same both in 4X and YO if required. Actually after John's email I tried to look for a trace of VE3OT as = well. There were some bits below the Eu Loran line 780.419, but nothing = conclusive. Do you happen to know his precise QRG? Best 73, and have a nice Sunday Markus (DF6NM) =20 From: jrusgrove@comcast.net=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:08 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Markus Yes ... it was a continuous transmission with no frequency step. = Interesting observation on midnight crossing the middle of the path.=20 Picked 200 watts as a starting point to see how well it was received. = The transmitter here is capable of 1 kW output. It appears that only = your grabber was able to 'see' the signal.=20 Weather permitting, I can run further tests tonight. Do you have = anything in mind? Might be interesting to do a repeat of last night's = test to see if the midnight/midpoint anomoly shows up.=20 Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:56 AM Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am really happy about this result. = Attached is a spectrum graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT, with about = 12 to 14 dB SNR in the 0.438 mHz FFT. Do I understand you correctly in that you transmitted a continuous = carrier, without a frequency step? Then the apparent 3.8 mHz shift must = have been a transient propagational Doppler effect. Remarkably, this = lines up with observations of John Andrew's tests in 2006, which had = also shown two long stable runs, with a dip and rapid phase change = inbetween. The dip seems to roughly coincide with midnight crossing over = the middle of the path, but I'm not aware of any simple physical = explanation for this. BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to mine: I have about 200 = W available into a Marconi antenna, which is about 0.1 percent efficient = now, and up to twice that in a cold winter night. Best regards, and thanks again for the test Markus (DF6NM)=20 From: jrusgrove@comcast.net=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Markus The mystery signal was from WD2XNS ... you have the time and frequency = perfectly correct and the color DF also provides corroborating evidence. = Note that there was no break in the transmission. The frequency is = controlled by a GPS disciplined oscillator (accuracy about 13 ppt). = Transmitter power was 200 watts ... radiated power is not known. During = winter, with frozen ground, additional radials, lower R and less = foliage, the radiated power would have been about 0.5 watt. Expect last = night's test would be at least 3 - 6 dB (maybe more) below that level. Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:45 AM Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 The mystery signal was received between about 0:15 and 3:30 on = 137780.310, with a 3.8 mHz downward shift from about 1:30 to 2:15 - = somewhat reminiscent of a DFCW "GM". Greenish colour indicates = southwesterly origin. The attached screenshot was taken at 8 UT, = timescale is 10 minutes per FFT. I checked the other available TA grabbers around 4 UT, but no trace = of the mystery signal. 73, and have a nice sunday, Markus (DF6NM) =20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 LF, there seems to be a signal on 137780.300 Hz, about 60 nV/m here. http://www.alice-dsl.net/df6nm/grabber/TAnarrow.jpg Wondering whose it may be... Best wishes, Markus ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01CC6B3D.4C30B7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, Jay. The effect is intruiging. The = Russian line=20 on 775 tells me that the receiver had stayed in lock all night, so it = must be=20 real.
 
Yes it would be good to try the same = parameters=20 again. There's a lot of QRN now, but the forecast says it should quiet = down=20 later tonight.
 
I'm not hooked to 780.30, just left the = slot where=20 it was after I transmitted near Chris' Loran line in Haifa. So = in=20 case we would really cause a problem for Mitch we might as well = move down a=20 tick, even a posteriori as long as it's between 774 and 781. I think = Chris could=20 do the same both in 4X and YO if required.
 
Actually after=20 John's email I tried to look for a trace of VE3OT as well. = There were=20 some bits below the Eu Loran line 780.419, but nothing = conclusive. Do=20 you happen to know his precise QRG?
 
Best 73, and have a nice = Sunday
 
Markus (DF6NM)

 
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

Markus
 
Yes ... it was a continuous = transmission with no=20 frequency step. Interesting observation on midnight crossing the = middle of=20 the path.
 
Picked 200 watts as a starting = point to see=20 how well it was received. The transmitter here is capable of 1 kW=20 output. It appears that only your grabber was able to 'see' the = signal.=20
 
Weather permitting, I can run further = tests=20 tonight. Do you have anything in mind? Might be interesting to do a = repeat of=20 last night's test to see if the midnight/midpoint anomoly = shows up.=20
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS =20 WE2XGR/2 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Sunday, September 04, = 2011 9:56=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on = 137780.3

Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am = really=20 happy about this result. Attached = is a spectrum=20 graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT,  with about 12 to 14 dB SNR = in the=20 0.438 mHz FFT.
 
Do I understand you correctly in that you = transmitted a continuous carrier, without a frequency step? Then the = apparent=20 3.8 mHz shift must have been a transient propagational Doppler = effect.=20 Remarkably, this lines up with observations of John Andrew's = tests=20 in 2006, which had also shown two long stable runs, with a = dip and=20 rapid phase change inbetween. The dip seems to roughly coincide = with=20 midnight crossing over the middle of the path, but I'm not aware of = any simple=20 physical explanation for this.
 
BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to = mine: I=20 have about 200 W available into a Marconi antenna, which is = about=20 0.1 percent efficient now, and up to twice that in a cold winter=20 night.
 
Best regards, and thanks again for the=20 test
Markus = (DF6NM)=20

From: jrusgrove@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

Markus
 
The mystery signal was from WD2XNS = ... you have=20 the time and frequency perfectly correct and the color DF also = provides=20 corroborating evidence. Note that there was no break in the=20 transmission. The frequency is controlled by a GPS disciplined=20 oscillator (accuracy about 13 ppt). Transmitter power was 200 = watts ...=20 radiated power is not known. During winter, with frozen ground,=20 additional radials, lower R and less foliage, the radiated = power=20 would have been about 0.5 watt. Expect last night's test would be = at=20 least 3 - 6 dB (maybe more) below that level.
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  = WE2XGR/2
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Sunday, September 04, = 2011 4:45=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal = on=20 137780.3

The mystery signal was received = between about=20 0:15 and 3:30 on 137780.310, with a 3.8 mHz downward = shift from=20 about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat reminiscent of a DFCW "GM". = Greenish=20 colour indicates southwesterly origin. The attached  screenshot = was=20 taken at 8 UT, timescale is 10 minutes per FFT.
 
I checked the other available TA = grabbers=20 around 4 UT, but no trace of the mystery signal.
 
73, and have a nice = sunday,
Markus = (DF6NM)   

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM
Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

LF,
 
there seems to be a signal on = 137780.300 Hz,=20 about 60 nV/m here.
http://www.a= lice-dsl.net/df6nm/grabber/TAnarrow.jpg
 
Wondering whose it may = be...
 
Best wishes,
Markus
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01CC6B3D.4C30B7A0--