Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-ma05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 972D83800008A; Mon, 5 Sep 2011 08:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1R0YPe-0003uJ-Vr for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:36:30 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1R0YPe-0003uA-5k for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:36:30 +0100 Received: from imr-ma05.mx.aol.com ([64.12.100.31]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1R0YPc-00059U-Bm for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:36:30 +0100 Received: from mtaomg-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.199]) by imr-ma05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id p85CaMCQ016160 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2011 08:36:22 -0400 Received: from core-msc002a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-msc002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.233.197]) by mtaomg-db01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id AC3ADE00008E for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2011 08:36:21 -0400 (EDT) References: <77DE9B8329834C6882925783A5F39A72@White><001b01cc6af5$a8f74190$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL><002001cc6b1c$d573e3a0$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Markus Vester X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: Webmail 34078-STANDARD Received: from 194.138.39.54 by webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com (149.174.18.31) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 05 Sep 2011 08:36:21 -0400 Message-Id: <8CE39DF8D338232-3718-74E2C@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [194.138.39.54] Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 08:36:21 -0400 (EDT) X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:485488800:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CE39DF8D573696_3718_12D101_webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:495632416:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d600d4e64c27655af X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CE39DF8D573696_3718_12D101_webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks to Jay and Chris for this second experiment, and congratulations to = both! The XNS carrier was visible in Nuernberg approximately from 23:45-1:30, and= again from 3:00-5:00. The higher frequency and directional error near the = end might have been due to sunrise approaching. Like before, there was the = gap in the middle, but this time without a distinctive Doppler-shifted dot. Chris' 4X screenshot shows one continuous reception from about 0:30-2:30 in= Haifa. As this extends well into my gap, the hypothesis of a midpath midni= ght minimum is certainly not generally valid. Last not least, from 23:30 on the carrier was also discernible on the F1AFJ= grabber, running at 33 mHz/pixel resolution. This demonstrates the clear a= dvantage of Jean-Pierres location and directional antenna - at comparable b= andwidth, he typically sees TA signals around 10 dB better than I do. To better understand seasonal variations of the propagation patterns, we co= uld repeat such tests on a regular (eg. monthly) basis. Of course it would = also be valuable if more stations would participate, both on the transmit a= nd receive side. The effort of generating stable signals will certainly be = rewarded by the prospect of long distance and/or low-power detections. Best wishes, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Chris 4X1RF An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mo, 5 Sept 2011 11:13 am Betreff: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Jay, Markus, Nice trace on 780.31 in Haifa last night. There's a frequency locking probl= em on my Bucharest LF receiver which makes it unsuitable as it is now for t= his kind of work. Thanks for the effort! 73s Chris 4X1RF On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Markus Vester wrote: Ok, Jay. The effect is intruiging. The Russian line on 775 tells me that th= e receiver had stayed in lock all night, so it must be real. =20 Yes it would be good to try the same parameters again. There's a lot of QRN= now, but the forecast says it should quiet down later tonight. =20 I'm not hooked to 780.30, just left the slot where it was after I transmitt= ed near Chris' Loran line in Haifa. So in case we would really cause a prob= lem for Mitch we might as well move down a tick, even a posteriori as long = as it's between 774 and 781. I think Chris could do the same both in 4X and= YO if required. =20 Actually after John's email I tried to look for a trace of VE3OT as well. T= here were some bits below the Eu Loran line 780.419, but nothing conclusive= . Do you happen to know his precise QRG? =20 Best 73, and have a nice Sunday =20 Markus (DF6NM) =20 From: jrusgrove@comcast.net=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:08 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Markus =20 Yes ... it was a continuous transmission with no frequency step. Interestin= g observation on midnight crossing the middle of the path.=20 =20 Picked 200 watts as a starting point to see how well it was received. The t= ransmitter here is capable of 1 kW output. It appears that only your grabbe= r was able to 'see' the signal.=20 =20 Weather permitting, I can run further tests tonight. Do you have anything i= n mind? Might be interesting to do a repeat of last night's test to see if = the midnight/midpoint anomoly shows up.=20 =20 Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:56 AM Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am really happy about this result. Attac= hed is a spectrum graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT, with about 12 to 14= dB SNR in the 0.438 mHz FFT. =20 Do I understand you correctly in that you transmitted a continuous carrier,= without a frequency step? Then the apparent 3.8 mHz shift must have been a= transient propagational Doppler effect. Remarkably, this lines up with obs= ervations of John Andrew's tests in 2006, which had also shown two long sta= ble runs, with a dip and rapid phase change inbetween. The dip seems to rou= ghly coincide with midnight crossing over the middle of the path, but I'm n= ot aware of any simple physical explanation for this. =20 BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to mine: I have about 200 W ava= ilable into a Marconi antenna, which is about 0.1 percent efficient now, an= d up to twice that in a cold winter night. =20 Best regards, and thanks again for the test Markus (DF6NM)=20 From: jrusgrove@comcast.net=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Markus =20 The mystery signal was from WD2XNS ... you have the time and frequency perf= ectly correct and the color DF also provides corroborating evidence. Note t= hat there was no break in the transmission. The frequency is controlled by = a GPS disciplined oscillator (accuracy about 13 ppt). Transmitter power was= 200 watts ... radiated power is not known. During winter, with frozen grou= nd, additional radials, lower R and less foliage, the radiated power would = have been about 0.5 watt. Expect last night's test would be at least 3 - 6 = dB (maybe more) below that level. =20 Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Markus Vester=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:45 AM Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 The mystery signal was received between about 0:15 and 3:30 on 137780.310, = with a 3.8 mHz downward shift from about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat reminiscen= t of a DFCW "GM". Greenish colour indicates southwesterly origin. The attac= hed screenshot was taken at 8 UT, timescale is 10 minutes per FFT. =20 I checked the other available TA grabbers around 4 UT, but no trace of the = mystery signal. =20 73, and have a nice sunday, Markus (DF6NM) =20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 LF, =20 there seems to be a signal on 137780.300 Hz, about 60 nV/m here. http://www.alice-dsl.net/df6nm/grabber/TAnarrow.jpg =20 Wondering whose it may be... =20 Best wishes, Markus ----------MB_8CE39DF8D573696_3718_12D101_webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Thanks to Jay and Chris for this second experiment, and congratulation= s to both!
 
The XNS carrier was visible in Nuernberg approximately from 23:45-1:30= , and again from 3:00-5:00. The higher frequency and directional error near= the end might have been due to sunrise approaching. Like before, there was= the gap in the middle, but this time without a distinctive Doppler-shifted= dot.
 
Chris' 4X screenshot shows one continuous reception from about 0:30-2:= 30 in Haifa. As this extends well into my gap, the hypothesis of a midpath = midnight minimum is certainly not generally valid.
 
Last not least, from 23:30 on the carrier was also discernible on the = F1AFJ grabber, running at 33 mHz/pixel resolution. This demonstrates the cl= ear advantage of Jean-Pierres location and directional antenna - at compara= ble bandwidth, he typically sees TA signals around 10 dB better than I do.<= /div>
 
To better understand seasonal variations of the propagation patterns, = we could repeat such tests on a regular (eg. monthly) basis. Of course it w= ould also be valuable if more stations would participate, both on the trans= mit and receive side. The effort of generating stable signals will certainl= y be rewarded by the prospect of long distance and/or low-power detections.=
 
Best wishes,
Markus (DF6NM)


 


= -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Chris 4X1RF <chrisgomy@gmail.com>
An: rsgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 5 Sept 2011 11:13 am
Betreff: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

Jay, Markus,

Nice trace on 780.31 in Haifa last night. There's a frequency locking probl= em on my Bucharest LF receiver which makes it unsuitable as it is now for t= his kind of work.

Thanks for the effort!


73s
Chris 4X1RF


On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Markus Vester <markusvester@aol.co= m> wrote:
Ok, Jay. The effect is intruiging. The Rus= sian line on 775 tells me that the receiver had stayed in lock all night, s= o it must be real.
 
Yes it would be good to try the same param= eters again. There's a lot of QRN now, but the forecast says it should quie= t down later tonight.
 
I'm not hooked to 780.30, just left the sl= ot where it was after I transmitted near Chris' Loran line in Hai= fa. So in case we would really cause a problem for Mitch we might as w= ell move down a tick, even a posteriori as long as it's between 774 and 781= . I think Chris could do the same both in 4X and YO if required.
 
Actually after John's email I tried to look for a trace of VE3OT as well= . There were some bits below the Eu Loran line 780.419, but nothing co= nclusive. Do you happen to know his precise QRG?
 
Best 73, and have a nice Sunday
 
Markus (DF6NM)
=
 
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3
=
Markus
 
Yes ... it was a continuous transmission w= ith no frequency step. Interesting observation on midnight crossing th= e middle of the path.
 
Picked 200 watts as a starting point = to see how well it was received. The transmitter here is capable of 1 = kW output. It appears that only your grabber was able to 'see' the sig= nal.
 
Weather permitting, I can run further test= s tonight. Do you have anything in mind? Might be interesting to do a repea= t of last night's test to see if the midnight/midpoint anomoly sh= ows up.
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:5= 6 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 1377= 80.3
=
Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am real= ly happy about this result. Attached is = a spectrum graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT,  with about 12 to 14 d= B SNR in the 0.438 mHz FFT.
 
Do I understand you correctly in that you tran= smitted a continuous carrier, without a frequency step? Then the apparent 3= .8 mHz shift must have been a transient propagational Doppler effect. = Remarkably, this lines up with observations of John Andrew's test= s in 2006, which had also shown two long stable runs, with a dip = and rapid phase change inbetween. The dip seems to roughly coincide wi= th midnight crossing over the middle of the path, but I'm not aware of any = simple physical explanation for this.
<= /FONT>
 
BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to mine= : I have about 200 W available into a Marconi antenna, which is a= bout 0.1 percent efficient now, and up to twice that in a cold winter night= .
 
Best regards, and thanks again for the test<= /div>
Markus (DF6NM)= =20

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3
=
Markus
 
The mystery signal was from WD2XNS ... you= have the time and frequency perfectly correct and the color DF also provid= es corroborating evidence. Note that there was no break in the transmission= . The frequency is controlled by a GPS disciplined oscillator (ac= curacy about 13 ppt). Transmitter power was 200 watts ... radiated power is= not known. During winter, with frozen ground, additional radials, low= er R and less foliage, the radiated power would have been about 0= .5 watt. Expect last night's test would be at least 3 - 6 dB (may= be more) below that level.
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2
  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:4= 5 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 1377= 80.3
=
The mystery signal was received between ab= out 0:15 and 3:30 on 137780.310, with a 3.8 mHz downward shift fr= om about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat reminiscent of a DFCW "GM". Greenish = colour indicates southwesterly origin. The attached  screenshot was ta= ken at 8 UT, timescale is 10 minutes per FFT.
 
I checked the other available TA grabbers = around 4 UT, but no trace of the mystery signal.
 
73, and have a nice sunday,
Markus (DF6NM)   

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM
Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3
=
LF,
 
there seems to be a signal on 137780.300 H= z, about 60 nV/m here.
 
Wondering whose it may be...
 
Best wishes,
Markus


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