Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-de03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 1AAAF380000B9; Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1R0FF3-00027e-GV for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 17:08:17 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1R0FF2-00027V-HJ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 17:08:16 +0100 Received: from qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.80]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1R0FF0-0000wN-Me for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 17:08:16 +0100 Received: from omta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.52]) by qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ufx21h00117dt5G58g88BR; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:08:08 +0000 Received: from JAYDELL ([76.23.233.102]) by omta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ug871h0132DDHkk3Zg87aE; Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:08:08 +0000 Message-ID: <002001cc6b1c$d573e3a0$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> From: To: References: <77DE9B8329834C6882925783A5F39A72@White> <001b01cc6af5$a8f74190$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:08:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,NO_REAL_NAME=0.55 Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01CC6AFB.4E07A080" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:478017120:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40cb4e63a2b046db X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CC6AFB.4E07A080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Markus Yes ... it was a continuous transmission with no frequency step. Interesting observation on midnight crossing the middle of the path. Picked 200 watts as a starting point to see how well it was received. The transmitter here is capable of 1 kW output. It appears that only your grabber was able to 'see' the signal. Weather permitting, I can run further tests tonight. Do you have anything in mind? Might be interesting to do a repeat of last night's test to see if the midnight/midpoint anomoly shows up. Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:56 AM Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am really happy about this result. Attached is a spectrum graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT, with about 12 to 14 dB SNR in the 0.438 mHz FFT. Do I understand you correctly in that you transmitted a continuous carrier, without a frequency step? Then the apparent 3.8 mHz shift must have been a transient propagational Doppler effect. Remarkably, this lines up with observations of John Andrew's tests in 2006, which had also shown two long stable runs, with a dip and rapid phase change inbetween. The dip seems to roughly coincide with midnight crossing over the middle of the path, but I'm not aware of any simple physical explanation for this. BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to mine: I have about 200 W available into a Marconi antenna, which is about 0.1 percent efficient now, and up to twice that in a cold winter night. Best regards, and thanks again for the test Markus (DF6NM) From: jrusgrove@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 Markus The mystery signal was from WD2XNS ... you have the time and frequency perfectly correct and the color DF also provides corroborating evidence. Note that there was no break in the transmission. The frequency is controlled by a GPS disciplined oscillator (accuracy about 13 ppt). Transmitter power was 200 watts ... radiated power is not known. During winter, with frozen ground, additional radials, lower R and less foliage, the radiated power would have been about 0.5 watt. Expect last night's test would be at least 3 - 6 dB (maybe more) below that level. Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 ----- Original Message ----- From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 4:45 AM Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 The mystery signal was received between about 0:15 and 3:30 on 137780.310, with a 3.8 mHz downward shift from about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat reminiscent of a DFCW "GM". Greenish colour indicates southwesterly origin. The attached screenshot was taken at 8 UT, timescale is 10 minutes per FFT. I checked the other available TA grabbers around 4 UT, but no trace of the mystery signal. 73, and have a nice sunday, Markus (DF6NM) From: Markus Vester Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3 LF, there seems to be a signal on 137780.300 Hz, about 60 nV/m here. http://www.alice-dsl.net/df6nm/grabber/TAnarrow.jpg Wondering whose it may be... Best wishes, Markus ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01CC6AFB.4E07A080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Markus
 
Yes ... it was a continuous = transmission with no=20 frequency step. Interesting observation on midnight crossing the = middle of=20 the path.
 
Picked 200 watts as a starting = point to see=20 how well it was received. The transmitter here is capable of 1 kW=20 output. It appears that only your grabber was able to 'see' the = signal.=20
 
Weather permitting, I can run further = tests=20 tonight. Do you have anything in mind? Might be interesting to do a = repeat of=20 last night's test to see if the midnight/midpoint anomoly = shows up.=20
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS =20 WE2XGR/2 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
Sent: Sunday, September 04, = 2011 9:56=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on = 137780.3

Excellent Jay, thanks very much! I am = really=20 happy about this result. Attached = is a spectrum=20 graph, showing your peak at 3:16 UT,  with about 12 to 14 dB SNR = in the=20 0.438 mHz FFT.
 
Do I understand you correctly in that you = transmitted a continuous carrier, without a frequency step? Then the = apparent=20 3.8 mHz shift must have been a transient propagational Doppler = effect.=20 Remarkably, this lines up with observations of John Andrew's = tests=20 in 2006, which had also shown two long stable runs, with a = dip and=20 rapid phase change inbetween. The dip seems to roughly coincide = with=20 midnight crossing over the middle of the path, but I'm not aware of = any simple=20 physical explanation for this.
 
BTW Your transmit situation must be similar to = mine: I=20 have about 200 W available into a Marconi antenna, which is = about=20 0.1 percent efficient now, and up to twice that in a cold winter=20 night.
 
Best regards, and thanks again for the=20 test
Markus = (DF6NM)=20

From: jrusgrove@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:27 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

Markus
 
The mystery signal was from WD2XNS = ... you have=20 the time and frequency perfectly correct and the color DF also = provides=20 corroborating evidence. Note that there was no break in the=20 transmission. The frequency is controlled by a GPS disciplined=20 oscillator (accuracy about 13 ppt). Transmitter power was 200 = watts ...=20 radiated power is not known. During winter, with frozen ground,=20 additional radials, lower R and less foliage, the radiated = power=20 would have been about 0.5 watt. Expect last night's test would be = at=20 least 3 - 6 dB (maybe more) below that level.
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  = WE2XGR/2
  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Markus=20 Vester
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Sunday, September 04, = 2011 4:45=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Weak signal = on=20 137780.3

The mystery signal was received = between about=20 0:15 and 3:30 on 137780.310, with a 3.8 mHz downward = shift from=20 about 1:30 to 2:15 - somewhat reminiscent of a DFCW "GM". = Greenish=20 colour indicates southwesterly origin. The attached  screenshot = was=20 taken at 8 UT, timescale is 10 minutes per FFT.
 
I checked the other available TA = grabbers=20 around 4 UT, but no trace of the mystery signal.
 
73, and have a nice = sunday,
Markus = (DF6NM)   

Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 5:39 AM
Subject: LF: Weak signal on 137780.3

LF,
 
there seems to be a signal on = 137780.300 Hz,=20 about 60 nV/m here.
http://www.a= lice-dsl.net/df6nm/grabber/TAnarrow.jpg
 
Wondering whose it may = be...
 
Best wishes,
Markus
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