Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 2F9EF38000191; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 06:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1QuiSZ-0007Hp-OF for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:07:23 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1QuiSY-0007Hg-TQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:07:22 +0100 Received: from nm2-vm0.bt.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([212.82.108.92]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1QuiSX-00063V-AE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:07:22 +0100 Received: from [212.82.108.229] by nm2.bt.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 10:07:15 -0000 Received: from [212.82.108.225] by tm2.bt.bullet.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 10:07:15 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.bt.mail.ird.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2011 10:07:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 172120.89907.bm@omp1002.bt.mail.ird.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 47316 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2011 10:07:15 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Xim7oT5kUQ34lDitDmEKQvFD40BWWvxuu2saIHz9RNBJO5pIXjdAulHel22dUqaF8MVOuF3ifOyIHUUmOMRr1NNUqyeebUjHIucxlH/WSe9blt7yAtQxbB3PijKNqzW2ci+eThjyK5lM8ZPkGf5UCtJTvO63lZalT0kUEXrLzrE= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btopenworld.com; s=s1024; t=1313834835; bh=R+q7Q0JFMFWweZ+MD5syuFZGYvJUfRuLFWDKpR9hcF0=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=YtcMpRiVHe2iCeMaBSJub/1uRNbPB/rirg4Erw5dptbJCX+7gkk+YCQiDuoiwlBERRq+lTEW08bvEnRTHNg1HgtV/60bB+8NR00TlmiFZRWxmAgyKf5TR8ZK1BTpssi7zCLr/C8zW+RMnPWvILpEtDZ7qLWqm8Ml+mEwjT98Y5s= X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: xUDwwtgVM1kgy_IlXBjxfsZnwy0Pym70BDb1Q3HjnASypVT 3Uy0N2zqGDjvrA6oDqxA24XSBLjNPaSvwAqjWX42JielEAxlP6G5MrDsD3pS lcnJxBvBoXqfGue8sVrlZcd2Q6aRznCaaepzlW6g9W1r18c6qcGdIKyNB7Kp iGU1Rsqp3E9.JU0fN.rUkv.95TSgsQlz5eZ3tzBVItzZfGKrPVLyfC3cGmc. aY07FWr42w.XBasuBURFk79_q0xMJuhYNVgOtX5bcQWAskvOJPhKJWCHAWUq oJseWEv7FuIOiOamiWR1iFB5z_Mh7Q514jsEgP0T95XvRV7T91qlSct3WEtl lW8PuRjEY7jmS7EIa4XCLg7WUHGDF.HKh9UBAFc6CAYEfOTGjpPjk.6dmsbS Bjm9nSDSIhq7ZOsjOYLs- X-Yahoo-SMTP: Cxhli3eswBD1ozmtAojhjrja86kWx0Qm9tycD5QR1DKWrOLgjJcXkw-- Received: from JimPC (james.moritz@86.135.149.173 with login) by smtp817.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Aug 2011 10:07:14 +0000 GMT Message-ID: <9CD1E11E8BC9402CB4AECECAC4088443@JimPC> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <16BC8B3CA8672445BC2A29B4C14A26D4379ED2AAB4@exlnmb01.eur.nsroot.net> <4DF9EFD1.5010208@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <1313780109.51443.YahooMailNeo@web111907.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1313780109.51443.YahooMailNeo@web111907.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:07:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: Re: Ferrite wideband antennas? Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:455158752:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d007.2 ; domain : btopenworld.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40864e4f87af3c02 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dear Daniele, LF Group, Regarding bandwidth, the first thing to note is that the same principles essentially apply to both air-cored loop and ferrite rod cored loop antennas - the main difference is that air-cored loops are wide and flat, but ferrite rods are long and thin ;-). Assuming you can make a preamp with a low enough noise level, the minimum usable signal level "sensitivity" of a loop antenna depends on the ratio between the induced signal level, and the level of thermal noise produced by the resistance of the loop windings, core losses, etc. So this sensitivity depends on the construction and size of the loop/rod, and in principle it does not matter if it is tuned for narrow-band resonance or loaded to produce wide bandwidth, provided the tuning or loading arrangements do not introduce additional noise. But in practice, tuning/loading and preamplifiers will introduce some additional noise. The big advantage of a tuned loop is that the resonant circuit can provide a high "passive gain". So Stefan's rod antenna probably produces an EMF in the nanovolt range for usable received signal levels, but the high Q circuit it forms with a parallel capacitor increases this voltage by more than 50dB The actual signal power level is not increased by the resonant circuit, but the much higher signal voltage is easily handled by a simple preamplifier with insignificant additional noise introduced. The resonant circuit also has a very narrow bandwidth - this might be an advantage for attenuating strong out-of-band signals, but is a drawback if wideband reception is required, or remote tuning of the loop is needed. In many commercially available wideband loops, the loop is loaded by a preamp with a very low input impedance. This provides a flat frequency response, since the loop EMF rises in proportion to signal frequency, but the signal current at the preamplifier input is maintained constant by the reactance of the loop inductance, which also rises proportional to frequency. This flat response is very popular for measuring applications and wideband reception. But the preamp design is much more difficult, because the input signal amplitude is effectively attenuated by the combination of high loop reactance and low preamp input impedance. So careful preamp design is needed, to provide a low input impedance, very low noise voltage, and a low noise figure when fed from a highly mis-matched, relatively much higher source impedance. The "noiseless feedback" techniques such as "Zwichenbasis" amplifiers mentioned by DF6NM or "Norton" feedback amplifiers can be usefully used. But even with careful preamp design, relatively large loops (~1m) seem to be neccessary to achieve a reasonable sensitivity. Of course, if loop size is not an issue, one can simply increase the loop area to produce a greater signal amplitude, and all that is needed is a large wire loop terminated by a low impedance receiver input. In my view, for communications reception purposes, creating a flat output voltage vs. field strength relationship for a wideband loop is not particularly useful - the background noise field strength decreases with frequency, so if you keep the "natural" signal EMF-proportional-to-frequency response of a loop, the background noise at the receiver input remains fairly constant with frequency. I have used 2x2m and 4 x 5m loop antennas where the loop inductance forms the input inductor of a low-pass filter with cut-off frequency of about 550kHz, in order to attenuate powerful broadcast signals. These give reasonable results from VLF to 500kHz without any tuning adjustments. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU