Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id D83473800010A; Sun, 3 Jul 2011 09:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1QdN3i-0001or-AT for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:50:02 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1QdN3h-0001oh-S5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:50:01 +0100 Received: from nm2-vm0.bt.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.242]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1QdN3g-00047V-5g for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:50:01 +0100 Received: from [217.146.183.197] by nm2.bt.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2011 13:49:54 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.205] by tm3.bt.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2011 13:49:54 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.bt.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2011 13:49:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 103300.93135.bm@omp1003.bt.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 91458 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2011 13:49:54 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=DKIM-Signature:Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE; b=0QldZbWBA2TkQ1fNMgPWokHvRcjkhsS1aLK/GHolnAhV+BduNfXH5FegrrsPbakXvkSyIcwlbBolIZMG3FJWbQNZG/a1OqMi4NgstPHqhL1R/qskkhQ4GUzTwQWU1RDVQPZouDqO1nQoMVzmY2/lRQ88Q+0YvrjeKtV6VPdrGdM= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btopenworld.com; s=s1024; t=1309700994; bh=I+MZHJxpg+ZzIbUlfBtfKRV7dhi4+mP/yB8ps4j+NLc=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE; b=L/KUSMWcBTfOLpY10WlzB3G9kliCSHcTZdJY9C1yGa1mczFI5ScBUU+f2CHEK/vXX/qUSHZW/f/ASbOZpzCJ8roVThy/djkSE2RyXBHbYmCDv9wk+TjmGzFZY9PaUbFrDEwqvdpafHyQHOEdS/C6z2B5BZU5cq3SQ1CtDOdM4XI= Received: from JimPC (james.moritz@86.135.149.244 with login) by smtp822.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 03 Jul 2011 13:49:53 +0000 GMT X-Yahoo-SMTP: Cxhli3eswBD1ozmtAojhjrja86kWx0Qm9tycD5QR1DKWrOLgjJcXkw-- X-YMail-OSG: 2qRlhdYVM1myUmJcT2ArA2VxoCpRUn5WBEnA4tpFFHZ3yEu ijWFAADVhBmkAHlIrRu2NH9EEjGBLpJE2kRRjeueL4liuIP5VGG2X_fQr8Tg FGeN5sYx239JkhQgpqVBU5q_CqMaWFfbqrmWwMs3qPFZxwkLIbQ1obThyQnf dcPosOLzrGsGnq2iWCxfuk1pvTjfaYaP6oO4fDspPQNIpxoIstIhbJQvzZje 2BEnH_Djyl1lDvXsnpBJFZgshOhPQZFW0VTQ42Wa9IIeSNXYgFl1jMgmI149 KjlK4SlwPCjwgxQu1BetBvYvWRZCPIDS5varO2ZjoDDX.W9K1_bSbJdhuTV8 JK3BH X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <27519D99CCF748A7850251478AFE6EEF@JimPC> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <4DF8A827.9070106@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <01a101cc2c6a$8c31a100$1502a8c0@Clemens04> <4DFA78BC.1020106@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <4DFB5AEB.70607@legal-medicine.de> <4E05E69B.2060803@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> In-Reply-To: <4E05E69B.2060803@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 14:50:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: Re: LF RX loop Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-15"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:462857152:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d232.2 ; domain : btopenworld.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d41164e1073e036ad X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dear Stefan, LF Group, A bit late, but better than nothing... > One more question: Does it make sense (regarding good SNR) to further > try to improve the Q or does it just make frequency adjustment > complicated? If the dynamic range of my soundcard can handle the signal > of DCF39 and DCF49 and DLF and i should have no problem, right? The > background noise should be limited by the band noise only of course. Is > there a straight dependency of gain and Q? > For a given size of loop, the signal power delivered to the optimum load impedance is proportional to the Q. Under this condition, the bandwidth is inversely proportional to the Q. At 137kHz, I estimate the band noise field strength is about 1uV/m in a 300Hz bandwidth in quiet conditions, For a 1m diameter circular loop, this will give an induced EMF of 2.3nV. The EMF across the loop terminals at resonance will be this value multiplied by the Q, 0.4uV. If the loop is matched to a 50ohm receiver input (a transformer with 3:1 turns ratio would be about right), the voltage at the RX input will be about 0.07uV. For receivers which maintain good sensitivity at LF, this would be several dB above the receiver noise floor, so actually no preamplifier would be needed. But many receivers do not have good LF sensitivity, so often a preamp will be needed. The preamp in the "bandpass loops" article will work well here. With the loop loaded in this way, the Q will be about 176/2, i.e. 88. This will give significant filtering of nearby utility and broadcast signals - e.g. 138.8kHz -4.5dB, 135.4kHz -10dB, 153kHz -25dB. This would certainly be helpful if dynamic range was a problem. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU