Return-Path: Received: from mtain-de05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-de05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.205]) by air-mb08.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMB082-a7d84d83ed262dd; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:39:18 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-de05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id AEDF63800011D; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Q0jFY-0007l6-HR for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:38:32 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Q0jFY-0007kx-24 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:38:32 +0000 Received: from nm6-vm0.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.183.234]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Q0jFW-0000wF-Vx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:38:32 +0000 Received: from [217.146.183.216] by nm6.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2011 23:38:24 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.178] by tm9.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2011 23:38:24 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1019.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Mar 2011 23:38:24 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 610816.7111.bm@omp1019.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 84498 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2011 23:38:24 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=DKIM-Signature:Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=5IqxTkIwo6crdBs7FRXiLSrnulfbeynpHSGmMhSdMD2ntDzZUgEh3KEr6rAeEMtDr5QRWxSvgSN0+aVcXBxPAuYvjpWxEfUIATWX4ZFyzefRSgofWzJO9FQuYwTnogW9HEV3BgXH7FIHjKRnPthMGqJ773ZD/Sqa6MCiIwf479s= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btopenworld.com; s=s1024; t=1300491504; bh=TdDGaGr2fH5iaOUiA0r2m4kSr3UndWfsN8yBYN0zxvA=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=tiBXQEf8ptLNgUZZGVFl+9xX/6Hq4jYkVPZBndZ8m1OnXZks2lcNAFl11QbdfMRzxZAxT/c0ngQRsNbOG0GARqT396xx5PPiNco+nCXXAip6IvI2nKLxOY8RvwMNor0XSDyVkpO15+2y/37LWVe0MgjPF0IeKVtNP6fE5Z6ADFo= Received: from JimPC (james.moritz@86.176.86.80 with login) by smtp820.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2011 23:38:24 +0000 GMT X-Yahoo-SMTP: Cxhli3eswBD1ozmtAojhjrja86kWx0Qm9tycD5QR1DKWrOLgjJcXkw-- X-YMail-OSG: 96r0fb0VM1mTd6ueArNM5WD8LIB5qcV2f6_L4yd3dG2sxig sk6TVUd1hdDCMdZ.dia7rtCHraC0bYB6kUpYD0qx_8RzpS0oCVXb9yIS3tfp Z3.YC9iM8grNiWCqf5dIQWZSJ_pwYo0Eo7KW5bhsacv.cO_tt9DGrrbJy4gB AtVfVqog2wP8UPnHLUSUXRaq8e0TVg20ZVfuSZkbJcceSRJlSeweQu3cVa2l SO74tcwX4N_eZrQtr9jfmX.qoo38P7cfrn8Ju X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <46CC2520244842BEA9AE6C08869AF741@JimPC> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <4D83D475.9090609@telus.net> <4D83D903.7000706@telus.net> In-Reply-To: <4D83D903.7000706@telus.net> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:38:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18263 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Loop TX antennas at VLF? Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m009.2 ; domain : btopenworld.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40cd4d83ed2435c1 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dear Scott, Roger, LF Group, I'm afraid the gyrator is a non-starter - there are different types of gyrator, but the concept is a feedback circuit that, when you apply a voltage to an input node, drive a current into that node with appropriate magnitude and phase to simulate the impedance you want (more usually an inductance). Usually these are small-signal circuits, used in active filters and similar applications, but no doubt you could make a high power version. But the out-of-phase current in the simulated reactance is being supplied by an amplifier - so you are getting rid of the reactive load current in one PA by adding another, much bigger, PA that has to deliver the (much bigger) reactive current instead - might as well design the original PA to handle the reactive load in the first place... I don't think the tuning problems of a loop at 9kHz would be as severe as Scott expects. The frequency and so the loop reactance is about 15 times lower than at 136k, so also for a given loop current the capacitor voltage is also 15 times lower - for the 10m x 10m loop, the voltage would be about 74V RMS at 9k, compared to 1.1kV at 136k. The reactive power rating requirement of the capacitors is thus also 15 times lower. I have recently been experimenting with a 136kHz PA design that has about 100V, 30A circulating in a 0.4uF capacitor made up of 8 small polypropylene units in parallel without any great drama - if anything, 9kHz would put less stress on the capacitors. As for Q requirements, the loop resistance will be reduced, but probably not by a factor of 15 - the skin effect makes R proportional to sqrt(f) at high frequencies, so falls off slower than the reactance as f decreases. Also, R will level off at VLF as the AC resistance approaches the DC resistance. Going with the previous calculation I did, loop reactance is about 2.3 ohm, loss resistance about 0.1ohm, so Q is only 23 - quite modest compared to 136k antennas. I don't think a small loop of the type discussed is viable for the kind of relatively long-range tests that have been going on lately is concerned. But a vertical of a similar size is a difficult thing to drive at 9kHz, with loading coils in the range of 1 Henry or more, and loss resistances that seem to be creeping into the kilohm range. So if you are attempting to radiate powers of the order of a uW, using only a few 10s of metres of wire in total (as per G3XBM's original enquiry), the loop might actually be a better bet. To find out if it really would, some 9kHz impedance measurements would be a good start. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU