Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dk03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dk03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.180.7]) by air-da04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDA041-85e64d84e38e28; Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:10:38 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dk03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id EC543380000A5; Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Q0zel-0005mb-I4 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:09:39 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Q0zel-0005mS-1x for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:09:39 +0000 Received: from nm16-vm0.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.183.254]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Q0zek-0000IB-BQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:09:39 +0000 Received: from [217.146.183.210] by nm16.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Mar 2011 17:09:32 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.62] by tm3.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Mar 2011 17:09:32 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1031.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Mar 2011 17:09:32 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 748246.65748.bm@omp1031.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 30677 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2011 17:09:32 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=DKIM-Signature:Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=uKFLwE1F3nwUEHsOEMElOkw7gZKP2eR7C/G7dTd0DHUewg016oZeNKBkmXTwjx0yZEHHDZkSf8fia4YH18zRbEBxOXgtHhSC+Dh0K7jRB61nEXVp45lkrlOobqdPqJ6w+LzlDG4e7VTipFaaLc6WNYJ63AdLooCwY4BlS4zKtiU= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btopenworld.com; s=s1024; t=1300554572; bh=3VLk55LUeb+AARRHsBTfurpjGOIGoeY3lL8gboLcncY=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=kksJkwb1hsrjyNpK3EFZOmxplQ2T4yr//3F/UtBwYSqRQXUE2sy0pDWl2J03cGCfSNj1NX9SkcoHjG4waSNPTw2XpPDueh33A264Q9sE2x9SdPDv1SK3xTmeWNplLYaPKyPg2iReRTkn3ulw3nKy6dEv603BIImrBI5/cPtf9Ro= Received: from JimPC (james.moritz@86.176.86.80 with login) by smtp817.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 2011 17:09:32 +0000 GMT X-Yahoo-SMTP: Cxhli3eswBD1ozmtAojhjrja86kWx0Qm9tycD5QR1DKWrOLgjJcXkw-- X-YMail-OSG: L1Ii2mgVM1nOcqyagVdZZqtdTdqsHGwJJD.EItYzpdb81O0 FbPQN_hmOxdwnxcLHDzpkoBaZvMGfgbXfnRSjbDLUJX8Y0.vZlNSbfF4Jgkw 9.2D6_wEWxuqHWvXqL1dpuOiIybf4dseS3D0ox.1guenUOkc0.yMUV_vcN8q Ccwe1QdsjGAThoRPKzqzsYatnsz2d_woxqZBsLD5OnI6lFr926KOsc4BoSXj Dpl2kSzk2Z2u5_wfsvX0bk.txCV8hk1GFRxgV X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <3D88D5AFC0094751A8CA041C9700D50E@JimPC> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <4D83CAEE.2060305@freenet.de> In-Reply-To: <4D83CAEE.2060305@freenet.de> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:09:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18263 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: Re: Frequency Stability Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d018.1 ; domain : btopenworld.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1db4074d84e38c1d9e X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none Dear Ken, Wolf, LF Group, I have been playing around with the insides of a Halcyon PFS-1 Droitwich-derived frequency standard over the last few days, and some observations might be of interest. The Receiver part of the PFS-1 is an off-air frequency standard that generates 10MHz, 5MHz and 1MHz outputs from the received 198kHz carrier, and is quite similar to the Quartzlock 2A device on Ebay. It has an external ferrite rod antenna, a single crystal 198kHz filter, limiting amplifier and a PLL which locks a 10MHz VCXO to the 198kHz signal. Most of the time it stays locked, but sometimes it becomes unlocked for a few minutes at a time, for reasons unknown. The 10MHz output is switched off when this happens. The rest of the PFS-1 is a DDS synthesiser that covers 0 - 16MHz in 100uHz steps. It has an internal 20MHz OCXO module, which is phase locked to the 10MHz reference from the receiver when that is present, and is otherwise free-running, at a frequency which is calibrated via a fine-tuning trimpot. The OCXO is a HCD71 module, which has specified ageing rate <1E-8 per day. The OCXO module in isolation seems to do much better than that, but when my PFS-1 was free-running, I found the stability was rather worse. After poking around inside, I think this is partly due to the trimpot used (a 20k, 22 turn component - these things are not great in my experience, not very stable and with a lot of backlash in the adjustment), and partly due to the circuit connected to the OCXO frequency control input, which is the PLL amplifier/loop filter, with the addition of some switching that, when the external reference is removed, sets the frequency control voltage using the trimpot, another resistor and a 78L09 regulator IC. Bearing in mind that 1 part in 10^8 requires the 0-6V frequency control voltage to be held stable to within 1mV or less, this needs quite a good, stable, bias voltage and pot to achieve the specification. I have now modified my unit to use the 6V output from the OCXO module and a 10k, 10 turn helipot on the front panel, with a CMOS switch to select the PLL output when operating. This seems to have improved the free-running stability significantly. It is interesting to compare the free-running OCXO output to the 10MHz locked receiver output on an oscilloscope. Once the OCXO is trimmed, the phase of one waveform "walking" relative to the other shows frequency differences down to the parts-per-billion level quite easily. It seems the 198kHz carrier has some kind of cyclical drift in phase which occurs over a period of a minute or two (the receiver PLL seems to filter out the faster phase modulation data), so the direction of "walking" changes from time to time. For using the PFS-1 as a frequency source for high stability signals over periods of hours, it seems to me it would be better to operate the synthesiser part in "unlocked" mode, and periodically trim the OCXO frequency using the receiver part. Otherwise, there are bound to be glitches in phase when it switches between off-air reference and OCXO, as it does from time to time. Also the observed wobbling phase of the 198kHz carrier, plus any ionospheric effects around darkness hours, would be reflected in the synthesiser output. The same possibly applies to the Quartzlock 2A. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU