Return-Path: Received: from mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.140]) by air-md09.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMD091-8b944d5c0939c8; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:28:25 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id D45AF38000317; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PplA2-0003q6-40 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:27:30 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PplA1-0003px-7c for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:27:29 +0000 Received: from cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([134.58.240.44]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ppl9z-0002db-01 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 17:27:29 +0000 Received: from smtps01.kuleuven.be (smtpshost01.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.74]) by cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A09351C002 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:27:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-HUB-N3.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-hub-n3.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.9.13]) by smtps01.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A57331E702 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:27:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.11.13]) by ICTS-S-HUB-N3.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.9.13]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:27:19 +0100 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:27:19 +0100 Thread-Topic: LF: TA TONITE Thread-Index: AcvN8p7ZGg0iWX00Q4OdzwcEb223ywACeMR/ Message-ID: References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935D3D@temps153538.tus.uk.thales> In-Reply-To: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935D3D@temps153538.tus.uk.thales> Accept-Language: nl-NL, nl-BE Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nl-NL, nl-BE MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.166 Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C88B050FEBCICTSSEXC2CAlu_" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608c4d5c093200f9 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : temperror X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C88B050FEBCICTSSEXC2CAlu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Paul, I measured the signal strength of HE3OM relative to DCF39 as -41dB. I am pretty confident about this value as I used a calibrated attenuator= (1dB steps). Calibration of the attenuator was done with a R&S SMG signal= generator (should be .01dB accurate) and a R&S URV3 (I didn't win the lot= tery, just have these available at QRL). So, IF DCF39 runs 40kW EIRP (maybe measured by pro's ?) and IF the path lo= ss of DCF39 and HE3OM is identical (as the distance is almost identical)= then one could conclude that HE3OM runs 4W EIRP. But all this was not my point, I just wanted to be helpfull and give the= US stations some clue of the signal they can expect from HE3OM. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g] namens Reeves Paul [Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:57 Aan: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Onderwerp: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, You will just have to wait then.... I certainly have both the equipment= and the antennas (both calibrated) needed to measure field strength ava= ilable to me but you have already said that my measurements would be mean= ingless and disparaged both my ability and qualifications - as well as tho= se of others. So NO I will certainly not bother with your transmissions or= , indeed, pursue this subject further as my expectation of your response= has been borne out. Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:43 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Radio amateurs do not have suitable calibrated equipment, suitable antenna= s nor in most cases the expertise to carry out these measurements. Can you measure my ERP ? and if so what is it ? >From your statement I assume you are an expert and qualified to make thes= e measurements. I am frequently on 137.7 and 136.318 I now await your observations. G3KEV ----- Original Message ----- From: Reeves Paul To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, The reference ...'especially by Radio Amateurs' could well be considered= offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I suppose that the onl= y qualified people would be marine radio officers? I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be forthcoming= - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisations in the fut= ure? Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Toni It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some hundreds of miles away. esp= ecially by Radio Amateurs. I have seen figures in the past and after a detailed mathematical analysis= the concluded statement was that this could be 6 dB either way, in other= words the erp measured could be 1W erp or maybe 4w erp or even worse a lo= t less. Let them believe what they like hi g3kev ----- Original Message ----- From: HB9ASB To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Thanks Rik I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would have around 4W= EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 100km away and cam= e to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low. Anyway, it shows me= again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP. Even Mal has probably= not the Watt he claims ;-) 73 de Toni 2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe > Hello Toni, group, I measured the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39. Distances to HE3OM (504km) and DCF39 (515km) are almost identical. This might give the US stations a clue what signal strength they can expec= t from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Tony could use to be copied. 73, Rik ON7YD ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB [hb9asb@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't leave the stati= on running unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sottens are limited= by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial before, I have just ne= xt Friday night. If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two weeks from stations= 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be possible to span 600= 0km using QRSS10. On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's say with QRSS6= 0. This would mean, that we could make only one or two QSO's. May be it's= better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and listen on 80m. This wo= uld give more stations the opportunity to contact us. However, if there is= a station from the East Coast we copy in QRSS10 it would get the priority= . What do you think about this approach? 73 de Toni 2011/2/15 James Moritz > Dear Toni, LF Group, HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal than most Eu stations= , so I guess you have a good chance of being copied in NA on Friday night,= unless the propagation is very poor. But as you will have seen from the= activity last weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, especiall= y where a single QSO takes hours. If possible, I would suggest transmittin= g some beacon signals from HE3OM between now and Friday, so that North Ame= rican stations can get a good idea what QRSS speed can be copied from your= station. Also, try to receive any W/VE beacons that might be running, so= that you also know what the requirement will be in the other direction.= Finally, I have usually found reception of US stations is best just befor= e dawn here, so make sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday! Good luck, Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication inte= nded solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addresse= d. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or cove= red by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in er= ror, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from= your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses= of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this compa= ny. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment= to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for= any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise th= at you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication inte= nded solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addresse= d. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or cove= red by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in er= ror, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from= your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses= of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this compa= ny. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment= to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for= any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise th= at you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. --_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C88B050FEBCICTSSEXC2CAlu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Paul,
 
I measured the signal strength of HE= 3OM relative to DCF39 as -41dB.
I am pretty co= nfident about this value as I used a calibrated attenuato= r (1dB steps). Calibration of the attenuator was done with a R&S SMG= signal generator (should be .01dB accurate) and a R&S URV3 (I didn't win the lottery, just have these available at QRL).
So, IF DCF39 runs 40kW EIRP (ma= ybe measured by pro's ?) and IF the path loss of DCF39 and HE3OM is identi= cal (as the distance is almost identical) then one could conclude that HE3= OM runs 4W EIRP.
 
But all this was not my point, I jus= t wanted to be helpfull and give the US stations some clue of the signal= they can expect from HE3OM.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
 
 
Van: owner-rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Reeves= Paul [Paul.Reeves@uk.thalesgroup.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 16:57
Aan: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'
Onderwerp: RE: LF: TA TONITE

Mal,
 
You will just have to wait then....   I certainl= y have both the equipment  and the antennas (both calibrated) needed= to  measure field strength available to me  but you= have already said that my measurements would be meaningless and disparaged both my abi= lity and qualifications - as well as those of others. So NO I will certain= ly not bother with your transmissions or, indeed, pursue this subject=  further as my expectation of your response has been borne out.
 
Paul    G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 2011 15:43
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Radio amateurs do not have suitable calibra= ted equipment, suitable antennas nor in most cases the expertise to carry= out these measurements.
Can you measure my ERP ? and if so wha= t is it ?
From  your statement I assume you are an ex= pert and qualified to make these measurements.
I am frequently on 137.7 and 136.318 I now= await your observations.
G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011= 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE

Mal,
 
The reference  ...'especially by Radio Amateurs' = ; could well be considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fa= ct. I suppose that the only qualified people would be marine radio officers?
I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not= be forthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisat= ions in the future?
 
Paul    G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Toni
It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some= hundreds of miles away. especially by Radio Amateurs.
I have seen figures in the past and after a deta= iled mathematical analysis the concluded statement was that this could be&= nbsp;6 dB either way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or= maybe 4w erp or even worse a lot less.
Let them believe what they like hi
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: HB9ASB
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011= 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Thanks Rik
I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would have around 4W= EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 100km away and cam= e to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low. Anyway, it shows me= again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP. Even Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-)
73 de Toni

2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Hello Toni, group,
 
I measured the HE3OM signa= l 41dB down on DCF39.
Distances to HE3OM (504km) and = DCF39 (515km) are almost identical.
This might give the US stations a cl= ue what signal strength they can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Ton= y could use to be copied.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD
 
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB= [hb9asb@gmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group

Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't leave the stati= on running unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sottens are limited= by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial before, I have just ne= xt Friday night.
If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two weeks from stations= 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be possible to span 600= 0km using QRSS10.
On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's say with QRSS6= 0. This would mean, that we could make only one or two QSO's. May be it's= better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and listen on 80m. This wo= uld give more stations the opportunity to contact us. However, if there is a station from the East Coast we copy= in QRSS10 it would get the priority.
What do you think about this approach?

73 de Toni

2011/2/15 James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com= >
Dear Toni, LF Group,

HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal than most Eu stations= , so I guess you have a good chance of being copied in NA on Friday night,= unless the propagation is very poor. But as you will have seen from the= activity last weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, especially where a single QSO takes hours. If pos= sible, I would suggest transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM between= now and Friday, so that North American stations can get a good idea what= QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to receive any W/VE beacons that might be running, so= that you also know what the requirement will be in the other direction.= Finally, I have usually found reception of US stations is best just befor= e dawn here, so make sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday!

Good luck,

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU




This email, including any attachment,= is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the indivi= dual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is= private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error= , please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from yo= ur system.


Anything contained in this email that= is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed= by nor is the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable precaut= ions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruse= s, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of soft= ware viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.



This email, including any attachment,= is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the indivi= dual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is= private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error= , please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from yo= ur system.


Anything contained in this email that= is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed= by nor is the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable precaut= ions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruse= s, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of soft= ware viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.


--_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C88B050FEBCICTSSEXC2CAlu_--