Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dc06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dc06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.134]) by air-db06.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDB062-86204d67d7df28c; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:25:03 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id D48AE38000108; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Pt0SA-00040E-Bi for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:23:38 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Pt0S9-000405-HO for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:23:37 +0000 Received: from mail-iy0-f171.google.com ([209.85.210.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Pt0S6-0006Pu-Ib for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:23:37 +0000 Received: by iyf40 with SMTP id 40so1325076iyf.16 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:23:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=az5xZvsaviujR1uYOCMW1ifztt6CAZ/JvTu1NH9R8ho=; b=nFXVajE1IG0VomGbWsw+QGeAPh3GcXxYepUdFQcUKYTTv1wdvNYR3ztZg1fg4Hn/By 5lpAxJH46VKl1jY6/FjBpMV5MAQqHbShnEkRu8bLwuAH/KQHS/M7KOoo1Hr5Ac2HCw7G g1Sx89s6jjtjytz3RwLKd1Udk/F9NHe1p4cQw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=adCloW5zCZkj8m1q0V+psPDEgjp6LjShLyK08qtWcSkXbS95kiTsqiVxkQwn+qQrgI sAs4x0i0Ac/gbVT727wWZ8zuj6gFjTXDANoFAvc/d7obEBpRfaYibDsDyElpdf6NquWU mvdxgVgL/Pc1RnDR7V8UD/sRQXzKcJnY19aa8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.56.144 with SMTP id wc16mr977539icb.180.1298651007326; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.205.196 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:23:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <558539.83618.qm@web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <6AD920D46A4546ECB1E0FF76E739307C@AGB> <002d01cbcd02$77e22890$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <443580.35039.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <558539.83618.qm@web28105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:23:27 +0000 Message-ID: From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_OBFUSCATE_10_20=1.397,SUBJECT_ENCODED_TWICE=1.543 Subject: LF: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_LF=3A_Re=3A_Re=3A_LF=3A_Re=3A_RE=3A_Alignment_of_=28Narrow_Ban?= =?windows-1252?Q?d=29_DATA_and_WSPR_frequency=92s_on_the_500_KHz_band=2E?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51dd1fbfa9b31049d1dbf8f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d284.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40864d67d7dc1e00 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --bcaec51dd1fbfa9b31049d1dbf8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the absence of any further advice, or useful comments Its running again, unchanged, on the original frequency. And observing that several others are still in the 503800 - 504000 region 503875Hz Andy www.g4jnt.com On 15 February 2011 14:47, M0FMT wrote: > Well Rik I am glad you used the word "Over regulation" if you are only > talking about a sensible and locally agreed arrangement like me taking= my > low-power beacon off when requested then I am not against it (The fact= I am > identifiable by virtue of CW means I can be contacted to say, turn it of= f). > > Your comments about other countries having the same band is well taken.= I > thought DL's could set up camp anywhere but had to be fixed frequency an= d LA > , OZ had oodles of spectrum to VFO around. > > At least in the Wild West every body had a gun! > > I hope you understand I am just putting the counter view to a carve up= of > 500kc/s it looked like a land grab to me very reminiscent to the Wild We= st! > > 73 es GL petefmt > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rik Strobbe > *To:* "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" > *Sent:* Tue, 15 February, 2011 14:14:53 > *Subject:* RE: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR > frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band. > > Pete, > > I agree that there is no need for strickt regulation (and certainly no > overregulation). > But some agreements to "live and let live" will help. At least to me it > makes sense that automated operations happen at the band edges (as it > is done now most of the time). > I am afraid that the "wild west" will lead to will lead to wild west > situations (where often a lot of fighting is involved). > Regarding 501-504kHz: this is certainly not UK only. Also ON, PA, OK and= EA > are limited to this band. > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk] > *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 februari 2011 14:23 > *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Onderwerp:* LF: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSP= R > frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band. > > I operate a low power Beacon on 501.15kc/s so I bag that frequency now= . > I have already been shooed off 500 at week ends, but to bag the frequenc= ies > I guess it needs to stay on 24/7. I also some times operate at the upper > band edge so I bag that frequency also. I will be issuing a list of my > favourite frequencies to bagsy them as well shortly. > > Rik .. EU station have plenty of channels outside the UK 501 / 504 to pl= ay > on. > > This is the RSGB style channelisation of 2/70 in the early 70's all over > again. IMHO this band should be like the Wild West no, "no go" areas. > > 73 es GL petefmt > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* mal hamilton > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Tue, 15 February, 2011 11:21:19 > *Subject:* LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR > frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band. > > This seems a sensible approach. Time division. Keep to the same freq in > time slots. > g3kev > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rik Strobbe > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Cc:* Joe Taylor > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:23 AM > *Subject:* LF: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92= s on > the 500 KHz band. > > Hello Graham, > > I would suggest to have all digital modes as close as possible to the ba= nd > edges, leaving the band centre for CW. > For WSPR there are currently 2 segments: one for EU stations to transmit= on > (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one NA stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/- 10= 0Hz) > to avoid local QRM (or better said RX overload). > So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kHz +/- 100Hz for other digimodes ? > It would be possible to have a single data segment for EU and NA it we= go > from frequency division to time division: if all EU stations would trans= mit > in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06, xx:08-xx:10 ... time slots and all NA > stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-xx-08 ... time slots they can use the > same frequency without local QRM. > But this would require a minor chang in the WSPR software (and maybe als= o > other software). > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.= uk > ] > *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20 > *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *CC:* Joe Taylor > *Onderwerp:* LF: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s= on > the 500 KHz band. > > *Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 50= 0 > KHz band.* > > > > The original wspr frequency 502.4 was defined as the working > frequency to utilise the =91clean=92 area just under the 504 harmo= nic, > whilst avoiding the various beacons running across the 501/504 ba= nd > at the time. However, time has moved on and there are now numerous =91d= ial > setting=92s=92 in use both sides of the Atlantic. > > > > Due to an apparent increase in the side band noise from the 504 > signal , possibly by enhanced propagation , the ROS MF (100 hz b/w) > working frequency is to be re defined as 500 USB dial set giving= a > centre carrier frequency of 501.500 > > > > Due to Ae bandwidth and perhaps alignment with other band=92s,= I > would suggest the original WSPR 502.4K is replaced with the lower > frequency of 495.9K , thus restoring the System=92s coverage and > facilitating changes of mode etc within a narrow bandwidth. > > > > I don=92t see this detracting from the monitoring of spot frequenc= y > beacons over 505Khz , but more appropriate to transmitting station= s > , which by the nature of the antenna arrays are not able comfortab= ly > to qsy from top to bottom of the band without re-tuning, not > always a simple option. > > > > Comments or suggestions please ?. > > > > Graham > > G0NBD > > > > > > > --bcaec51dd1fbfa9b31049d1dbf8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the absence of any further advice, or useful comments=A0
Its running again, unchanged,=A0on the original frequency.
=A0
And observing that several others are still in the 503800 - 504000=A0= region
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 503875Hz
=A0
=A0
Andy


=A0
On 15 February 2011 14:47, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Well Rik I am glad you used the word "Over regulation" if= you are only talking about a sensible and locally agreed arrangement like= me taking my low-power beacon off when requested then I am not against it= (The fact I am identifiable by virtue of CW means I can be contacted to= say, turn it off).
=A0
Your comments about other countries having the same band is well take= n. I thought DL's could set up camp anywhere but had to be fixed frequ= ency and LA , OZ had oodles of spectrum to VFO around.
=A0
At least in the Wild West every body had a gun!=A0
=A0
I hope you understand I am just putting the counter view to a carve= up of 500kc/s it looked like a land grab to me very reminiscent to the Wi= ld West!
=A0
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe= @fys.kuleuven.be>
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>= ;
Sent: Tue, 15 February, 20= 11 14:14:53
Subject: RE= : Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s= on the 500 KHz band.

Pete,
=A0
I agree that there is no need for strickt regulation (and certainly= no overregulation).
But some agreements to "live and let live" will help. At le= ast to me it makes sense that automated operations happen at the band edge= s (as it is=A0done now most of the time).
I am afraid that the "wild west" will lead to will lead to= wild west situations (where often a lot of fighting is involved).
Regard= ing 501-504kHz: this is certainly not UK only. Also ON, PA, OK and EA are= limited to this band.=A0
=A0
73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T
=A0
Van: owner-rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0= FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co= .uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 14:23
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blac= ksheep.org
Onderwerp: LF: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narr= ow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

I operate a low power Beacon on 501.15kc/s so=A0I bag that frequency= now. I have already been shooed=A0off 500 at week ends, but to bag the fr= equencies I guess it needs to stay on 24/7. I also=A0some times operate at= the upper band edge so=A0I bag that frequency also. I will=A0be issuing= a list of my favourite frequencies to bagsy them as well shortly.
=A0
Rik .. EU station have plenty of channels outside the UK 501 / 504 to= play on.
=A0
This is the RSGB style channelisation of 2/70 in the early 70's= all over again. IMHO this band should be like the Wild West no, "no= go" areas.
=A0
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk= .net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org
Sent: Tue, 15 February, 20= 11 11:21:19
Subject: LF= : Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 50= 0 KHz band.

This seems a sensible approach. Time division.= Keep to the same freq in time slots.
g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:= 23 AM
Subject: LF: RE: Alignment of (Narr= ow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

Hello Graham,
=A0
I would suggest to have all digital= modes as close as possible to the band edges, leaving the band centre for= CW.
For WSPR there=A0are currently=A02= segments: one for EU stations to transmit on (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one= NA stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/- 100Hz) to avoid local QRM (or be= tter said RX overload).
So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kH= z +/- 100Hz for other digimodes ?
It would be possible to have a singl= e data segment for EU and NA it we go from frequency division to time divi= sion: if all EU stations would transmit in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06,= xx:08-xx:10 ... time slots and all NA stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-= xx-08 ... time slots they can use the same frequency without local QRM.
But this would require a minor chang= in the WSPR software (and maybe also other software).
=A0
73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T
=A0
Van: owner-rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Gr= aham [g8fzk@g= 8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org
CC: Joe Taylor
Onderwerp: LF: Alignment= of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

Alignment of =A0(Narrow Band) DATA =A0and =A0WSPR=A0 frequency=92s on the=A0 500 KHz=A0 band.

= =A0

= The=A0 original wspr frequency =A0=A0502.4= =A0 was=A0 defined=A0 as the=A0 working=A0 frequency=A0 to=A0 u= tilise the=A0 =91clean=92 area=A0 just under the= =A0 504=A0 harmonic, whilst avoiding the= =A0 various=A0 beacons=A0 running= =A0 across=A0 the=A0 501/504=A0 band at the=A0 time. However, time has moved on and there= are now numerous =91dial setting=92s=92 in use both sides of the <= span lang=3D"EN-GB">Atlantic.

= =A0

= Due to=A0 an apparent =A0increase=A0 in the=A0 side band=A0 noise=A0 f= rom the=A0 504 signal , possibly by=A0 enhanced<= span>=A0 propagation , the=A0 ROS=A0 MF =A0(10= 0 hz b/w) working=A0 frequency is=A0 to be re de= fined as=A0 500=A0 U= SB dial=A0 set=A0 gi= ving a=A0 centre=A0 carrier=A0 freq= uency of 501.500 =A0

= =A0

= Due=A0 to=A0 Ae=A0 bandwidth and=A0 perhaps =A0alignment=A0 with= =A0 =A0other=A0 =A0band=92s,= =A0I =A0=A0would=A0 suggest the or= iginal WSPR =A0502.4K is=A0 replaced=A0 with the=A0 lower frequency =A0of=A0= 495.9K , thus=A0 restoring the=A0 System= =92s=A0 coverage and=A0 facilitating=A0 changes=A0 of mode etc within a=A0 narrow= bandwidth.

= =A0

= I don=92t =A0see=A0 this=A0 detract= ing=A0 from the monitoring=A0 of spot=A0= frequency=A0 beacons=A0 over 505Khz , bu= t more=A0 appropriate=A0=A0 to=A0 t= ransmitting=A0 stations , which=A0 by the= =A0 nature of the=A0 antenna arrays are=A0 not=A0 able=A0 comfortably=A0 to<= span>=A0 qsy=A0 from=A0 top=A0 to=A0 bottom of the=A0 band without=A0 re-tun= ing, not=A0 always a=A0 simple=A0 option.

= =A0

= Comments=A0 or=A0 suggestions please ?.

= =A0

= Graham

= G0NBD

= =A0






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