Return-Path: Received: from mtain-ma12.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-ma12.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.20]) by air-db10.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDB101-85fc4d5ad84a304; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:22 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-ma12.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 4E70D38000049; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PpQqx-0001aY-Cb for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:46:27 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PpQqw-0001aP-Jr for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:46:26 +0000 Received: from smtp7.freeserve.com ([80.12.242.2] helo=smtp6.freeserve.com) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PpQqu-0000RH-GV for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:46:26 +0000 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3j16.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AF78E300013D for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:46:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf3j16.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A077F300013E for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:46:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from AGB (unknown [91.109.13.226]) by mwinf3j16.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with SMTP id D2321300013D for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:46:14 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20110215194614861.D2321300013D@mwinf3j16.me.freeserve.com Message-ID: <3E9D22C54CF74270AD5709150E5A9D34@AGB> From: "Graham" To: References: <6AD920D46A4546ECB1E0FF76E739307C@AGB> <002d01cbcd02$77e22890$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> In-Reply-To: <002d01cbcd02$77e22890$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:46:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 110214-1, 14/02/2011), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,SUBJECT_ENCODED_TWICE=1.543 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_LF:_Re:_RE:_Alignment_of__=28Narrow_Band=29_DATA__an?= =?Windows-1252?Q?d__WSPR__frequency=92s_on_the__500_KHz__band.?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0074_01CBCD49.00D64460" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60144d5ad84879ce X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01CBCD49.00D64460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to 'all'=20 This is the main point of 'post' Due to =3D=3DAe bandwidth and perhaps alignment with other = band=92s=3D=3D, I would suggest the original WSPR 502.4K is rep= laced with the lower frequency of 495.9K , thus restoring the Sy= stem=92s coverage and facilitating changes of mode etc within a = narrow bandwidth Im not convinced on the separation of the wspr 'band's in band'= exists purely to prevent interference, as once the station = separation exceeds round 75 miles the ground signal has substan= tially diminished , moreover , with a reasonable receiver and so= undcard or direct conversion, the dynamic range is quite sufficien= t to enable adjacent decode's ? As a transmitting station , I find I am unable to qsy from the= top to the bottom of the band without incurring a substantial = increase in the reflected power , due to the Q of the 'small array'= I'm sure other transmitting stations are also in this position= , which makes frequency changing some what laborious (and wet= if its raining) , the fixed beacons in the USA are now centred on= the lower frequency .=20 Its now common to find stations monitoring ,one or the other of= the frequency's for wspr , which effectively prevents the spot= capture of any TA opening by EU based stations monitoring 502.4= and vice versa , In point, Last Sunday night at 21:30 gmt Jo= e VO1NA decoded my ROS data signal. while - NO TA - spots wher= e showing on wspr , usa and eu where monitoring each owns frequenc= y slots=20 Band Police :=20 Well as recently demonstrated in Egypt even the police can fee= l hard done by , Those based in the Uk may well be veterans of= the 'war of the beacons' a sort variation of the HG well's war of= the worlds , where automated mania set in and by the discovery of= ground wave , destroyed reception south of Watford gap , so I ca= n understand there may be a little residual 'high tension' in the= 'air'=20 Summery=20 Side band interference from the 504 signal seems to be wider an= d is causing problems with ROS and WSPR decodes (no sun spots= ?) TA monitoring has become divided rendering it ineffective and not= capable of catching 'flash' TA or other openings=20 ROS MF (100hz) data mode frequency has been re defined as 500K= dial set , putting it 500Hz inside the lower band edge=20 Ae bandwidth considerations prevent TX stations from frequency = change , hampering wspr QSY=20 Each to his own of course , but a little alignment always helps= ! G ..=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:21 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequenc= y=92s on the 500 KHz band. This seems a sensible approach. Time division. Keep to the same freq= in time slots. g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rik Strobbe=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Cc: Joe Taylor=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:23 AM Subject: LF: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency= =92s on the 500 KHz band. Hello Graham, I would suggest to have all digital modes as close as possible to th= e band edges, leaving the band centre for CW. For WSPR there are currently 2 segments: one for EU stations to tran= smit on (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one NA stations to transmit on (501.1= kHz +/- 100Hz) to avoid local QRM (or better said RX overload).=20 So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kHz +/- 100Hz for other digimodes= ? It would be possible to have a single data segment for EU and NA it= we go from frequency division to time division: if all EU stations wo= uld transmit in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06, xx:08-xx:10 ... time slo= ts and all NA stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-xx-08 ... time slots= they can use the same frequency without local QRM. But this would require a minor chang in the WSPR software (and maybe= also other software). 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk] Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org CC: Joe Taylor Onderwerp: LF: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92= s on the 500 KHz band. Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the = 500 KHz band. The original wspr frequency 502.4 was defined as the working= frequency to utilise the =91clean=92 area just under the 504 = harmonic, whilst avoiding the various beacons running across the= 501/504 band at the time. However, time has moved on and there are= now numerous =91dial setting=92s=92 in use both sides of the Atlantic= . Due to an apparent increase in the side band noise from the = 504 signal , possibly by enhanced propagation , the ROS MF (100= hz b/w) working frequency is to be re defined as 500 USB dial se= t giving a centre carrier frequency of 501.500 =20 Due to Ae bandwidth and perhaps alignment with other band= =92s, I would suggest the original WSPR 502.4K is replaced with= the lower frequency of 495.9K , thus restoring the System=92s = coverage and facilitating changes of mode etc within a narrow ban= dwidth.=20 I don=92t see this detracting from the monitoring of spot freq= uency beacons over 505Khz , but more appropriate to transmitting= stations , which by the nature of the antenna arrays are not ab= le comfortably to qsy from top to bottom of the band without= re-tuning, not always a simple option. Comments or suggestions please ?. Graham G0NBD ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01CBCD49.00D64460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks  to  'all'
 
This   is the  main&nb= sp;=20 point  of  'post'
 
Due  to  =3D=3DAe  bandwidth and  perhaps  alignment=   with   other  &n= bsp;band=92s=3D=3D,  I   would  suggest the original= WSPR  502.4K is  replaced  with the  lower frequency  of =20 495.9K , thus  re= storing=20 the  System=92s  coverage and  facilitating  changes

Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and= WSPR=20 frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

This seems a sensible approach. Time division.= Keep to the=20 same freq in time slots.
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rik Strobbe
Sent: Tuesday, February 15,= 2011 7:23=20 AM
Subject: LF: RE: Alignment of= (Narrow=20 Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

Hello Graham,
 
I would suggest to have all digita= l modes as=20 close as possible to the band edges, leaving the band centre for=20 CW.
For WSPR there are currently&= nbsp;2=20 segments: one for EU stations to transmit on (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) an= d one NA=20 stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/- 100Hz) to avoid local QRM (or= better=20 said RX overload).
So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3= kHz +/- 100Hz=20 for other digimodes ?
It would be possible to have a sin= gle data=20 segment for EU and NA it we go from frequency division to time divis= ion: if=20 all EU stations would transmit in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06, xx:0= 8-xx:10=20 ... time slots and all NA stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-xx-08= ... time=20 slots they can use the same frequency without local QRM.
But this would require a minor cha= ng in the WSPR=20 software (and maybe also other software).
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T<= /DIV>
 
Van:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.o= rg] namens=20 Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 feb= ruari 2011=20 2:20
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
CC: Joe= =20 Taylor
Onderwerp: LF: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and= WSPR=20 frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

Alignment of  (Narrow Band) DATA  and=20  WSPR  frequency=92s on the = ; 500=20 KHz  band.

 

The  original wspr frequency=20   502.4  was =20 defined  as the =20 working  frequency  to =20 utilise the  =91clean=92 area = just=20 under the  504  harmonic, whilst= avoiding=20 the  various  beacons = ;=20 running  across  the =20 501/504  band at the  tim= e.=20 However, time has moved on and there are now numerous =91dial settin= g=92s=92 in use=20 both sides of the Atlantic.

 

Due=20 to  an apparent  increase&= nbsp;=20 in the  side band =20 noise  from the  504 sign= al ,=20 possibly by  enhanced  propagati= on ,=20 the  ROS  MF  (100 hz b/w)= =20 working  frequency is  to be re= defined=20 as  500  USB dial  set =20 giving a  centre =20 carrier  frequency of 501.500=20  

 

Due  to  Ae =20 bandwidth and  perhaps=20  alignment  with =20  other   band=92s,=20  I   would  suggest=20 the original WSPR  502.4K is =20 replaced  with the  lower= frequency=20  of  495.9K , thus = =20 restoring the  System=92s  coverage=20 and  facilitating  changes=  =20 of mode etc within a  narrow bandwidth.

 

I don=92t=20  see  this =20 detracting  from the monitoring = of=20 spot  frequency  beacons&n= bsp;=20 over 505Khz , but more  appropriate&n= bsp; =20 to  transmitting  station= s ,=20 which  by the  nature of the =20 antenna arrays are  not =20 able  comfortably  to =20 qsy  from  top = ;=20 to  bottom of the  band= =20 without  re-tuning, not  always a  simple =20 option.

 

Comments  or  suggestions=20 please ?.

 

Graham

G0NBD

 





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