Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mi08.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mi08.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.131.166]) by air-de05.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDE053-5eb44d5bffed3b0; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:48:45 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mi08.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 4F00C380000EB; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:48:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PpkXY-0002vF-Oh for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:47:44 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PpkXX-0002v6-TU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:47:43 +0000 Received: from out1.ip07ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.243]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PpkXV-0002Fo-KY for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:47:43 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AisBAI6OW01cB91z/2dsb2JhbACCSpBmA4Nvjkd0vCWFXgSBZZBq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.60,480,1291593600"; d="scan'208,217";a="480235001" Received: from host-92-7-221-115.as43234.net (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([92.7.221.115]) by out1.ip07ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2011 16:47:34 +0000 Message-ID: <008d01cbcdf9$323a3f60$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935D3D@temps153538.tus.uk.thales> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:47:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008A_01CBCDF9.31F9DB00" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039400cded04d5bffeb1340 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01CBCDF9.31F9DB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Call me on CW when you next hear me for further discussion , its quick= er than QRS. I am disappointed that you cannot supply me with some measurements sin= ce you have the necessay calibrated equipment. I will decide the validity of your erp measurements when I get the res= ult, if you are an expert they should be accurate. I am now QRV on 502.5 CW and await some erp measurements from you. G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Reeves Paul=20 To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:57 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, You will just have to wait then.... I certainly have both the equi= pment and the antennas (both calibrated) needed to measure field str= ength available to me but you have already said that my measurements= would be meaningless and disparaged both my ability and qualification= s - as well as those of others. So NO I will certainly not bother with= your transmissions or, indeed, pursue this subject further as my expe= ctation of your response has been borne out. Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:43 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Radio amateurs do not have suitable calibrated equipment, suitable= antennas nor in most cases the expertise to carry out these measureme= nts.=20 Can you measure my ERP ? and if so what is it ? From your statement I assume you are an expert and qualified to= make these measurements. I am frequently on 137.7 and 136.318 I now await your observations= .=20 G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Reeves Paul=20 To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, The reference ...'especially by Radio Amateurs' could well be= considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I suppo= se that the only qualified people would be marine radio officers? I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be fo= rthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisatio= ns in the future? Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Toni It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some hundreds of mil= es away. especially by Radio Amateurs. I have seen figures in the past and after a detailed mathemati= cal analysis the concluded statement was that this could be 6 dB eithe= r way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or maybe 4w erp= or even worse a lot less. Let them believe what they like hi g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: HB9ASB=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Thanks Rik I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would ha= ve around 4W EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 10= 0km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low.= Anyway, it shows me again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP.= Even Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-) 73 de Toni 2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe Hello Toni, group, I measured the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39. Distances to HE3OM (504km) and DCF39 (515km) are almost id= entical. This might give the US stations a clue what signal strengt= h they can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Tony could use to be= copied. 73, Rik ON7YD -------------------------------------------------------------------- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB [hb9asb@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't= leave the station running unattended. And the nights I can spend in= Sottens are limited by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no tria= l before, I have just next Friday night. If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two wee= ks from stations 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be= possible to span 6000km using QRSS10. On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let'= s say with QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or two= QSO's. May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and= listen on 80m. This would give more stations the opportunity to conta= ct us. However, if there is a station from the East Coast we copy in= QRSS10 it would get the priority. What do you think about this approach? 73 de Toni 2011/2/15 James Moritz Dear Toni, LF Group, HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal tha= n most Eu stations, so I guess you have a good chance of being copied= in NA on Friday night, unless the propagation is very poor. But as yo= u will have seen from the activity last weekend, forward planning is= always a good thing, especially where a single QSO takes hours. If po= ssible, I would suggest transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM be= tween now and Friday, so that North American stations can get a good= idea what QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to re= ceive any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also know wh= at the requirement will be in the other direction. Finally, I have usu= ally found reception of US stations is best just before dawn here, so= make sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday! Good luck,=20 Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU=20 This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communic= ation intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom= it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be= proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have= received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt,= and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the= businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liabilit= y of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any= attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept= liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses,= and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before open= ing any attachment. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communicatio= n intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it= is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be pro= prietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have recei= ved this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and im= mediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the busi= nesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of= this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attac= hment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liabi= lity for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and wou= ld advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any= attachment. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01CBCDF9.31F9DB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Call me on CW when you next hear me for furthe= r discussion=20 , its quicker than QRS.
I am disappointed that you cannot supply me wi= th some=20 measurements since you have the necessay calibrated equipment.<= /DIV>
I will decide the validity of your erp measure= ments when I=20 get the result, if you are an expert they should be accurate.
I am now QRV on 502.5 CW and await some erp me= asurements=20 from you.
 
 
G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Reeves Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February 16,= 2011 3:57=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE

Mal,
 
You=20 will just have to wait then....   I certainly have both th= e=20 equipment  and the antennas (both calibrated) needed=20 to  measure field strength available to me  but= you have=20 already said that my measurements would be meaningless and disparage= d both my=20 ability and qualifications - as well as those of others. So NO I wil= l=20 certainly not bother with your transmissions or, indeed, pursue= this=20 subject further as my expectation of your response has been bor= ne=20 out.
 
Paul    G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From:= mal hamilton=20 [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 2011=20 15:43
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF:=20 TA TONITE

Radio amateurs do not have suitable= calibrated=20 equipment, suitable antennas nor in most cases the expertise to ca= rry out=20 these measurements.
Can you measure my ERP ? and if= so what is=20 it ?
From  your statement I assume you are= an expert=20 and qualified to make these measurements.
I am frequently on 137.7 and 136.318= I now await=20 your observations.
G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Reeves Paul
Sent: Wednesday, February= 16, 2011=20 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONIT= E

Mal,
 
The reference  ...'especially by Radi= o Amateurs'  could=20 well be considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by= fact. I=20 suppose that the only qualified people would be marine radio=20 officers?
I will not request a retraction - knowing= you it would not be=20 forthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping gener= alisations=20 in the future?
 
Paul    G8GJA=
-----Original Message-----
Fro= m: mal hamilton=20 [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 201= 1=20 15:03
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject= : Re:=20 LF: TA TONITE

Toni
It is all Guesswork trying to measure= ERP some=20 hundreds of miles away. especially by Radio Amateurs.
I have seen figures in the past and af= ter a=20 detailed mathematical analysis the concluded statement was tha= t this=20 could be 6 dB either way, in other words the erp measured= could be=20 1W erp or maybe 4w erp or even worse a lot less.
Let them believe what they like hi
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----=
From:=20 HB9ASB=20
Sent: Wednesday, Febr= uary 16,=20 2011 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: TA= TONITE

Thanks Rik
I've read somewhere that DCF39= has 40kW=20 EIRP. So we would have around 4W EIRP. Last week a station= measured=20 our field strength, 100km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is= probably=20 a little bit to low. Anyway, it shows me again, that most am= ateurs=20 overestimate their ERP. Even Mal has probably not the Watt= he claims=20 ;-)
73 de Toni

2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe <Rik.= Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Hello Toni, group,
 
I measured=20 the HE3OM signal 41dB down=20 on DCF39.
Distances to HE3OM (504k= m)=20 and DCF39 (515km) are almost identical.
This might give the US= stations a clue=20 what signal strength they can expect from HE3OM and what= QRSS speed=20 Tony could use to be copied.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD
 
 
Van:= owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= namens HB9ASB=20 [hb9asb@gmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16=20 februari 2011 8:44
Aan: rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp:=20 Re: LF: TA TONITE

Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group

Unfortunately the= tower is=20 not nearby my house and I can't leave the station running= =20 unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sottens are limi= ted by my=20 health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial before, I hav= e just=20 next Friday night.
If I take a look at the reports we= got in the=20 past two weeks from stations 2000-3000km away (always good= audible),=20 it should be possible to span 6000km using QRSS10.
On= the=20 receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's say= with=20 QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or tw= o QSO's.=20 May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10= and=20 listen on 80m. This would give more stations the opportuni= ty to=20 contact us. However, if there is a station from the East= Coast we=20 copy in QRSS10 it would get the priority.
What do you= think about=20 this approach?

73 de Toni

2011/2/15 James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com><= /SPAN>
Dear=20 Toni, LF Group,

HE3OM has the advantage of a much= stronger=20 TX signal than most Eu stations, so I guess you have a= good chance=20 of being copied in NA on Friday night, unless the propag= ation is=20 very poor. But as you will have seen from the activity= last=20 weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, especi= ally where=20 a single QSO takes hours. If possible, I would suggest= =20 transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM between now= and=20 Friday, so that North American stations can get a good= idea what=20 QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to= receive=20 any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also= know what=20 the requirement will be in the other direction. Finally,= I have=20 usually found reception of US stations is best just befo= re dawn=20 here, so make sure you are not going to be busy on=20 Saturday!

Good luck,=20

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU=20




This email, including any attachm= ent, is a=20 confidential communication intended solely for the use of the in= dividual=20 or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which= is=20 private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional= privilege.=20 If you have received this email in error, please notify the send= er upon=20 receipt, and immediately delete it from your system.

<= BR>

Anything contained in this email= that is not=20 connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorse= d by nor=20 is the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable= precautions to=20 ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viru= ses, we=20 cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of= software=20 viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus chec= ks before=20 opening any attachment.


=

This email, including any attachment,= is a=20 confidential communication intended solely for the use of the indivi= dual or=20 entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is pri= vate and=20 may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If yo= u have=20 received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt,= and=20 immediately delete it from your system.


Anything contained in this email that= is not=20 connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by= nor is=20 the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable preca= utions to=20 ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses,= we cannot=20 accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software vi= ruses, and=20 would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening= any=20 attachment.


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