Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dd12.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dd12.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.152]) by air-dd06.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDD061-860c4d37027134; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:25:37 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dd12.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id C338B38000121; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PfZtt-0000UT-Id for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:24:45 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PfZts-0000UK-K3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:24:44 +0000 Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com ([209.85.213.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PfZtp-00047q-Fx for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:24:44 +0000 Received: by yxi11 with SMTP id 11so263483yxi.16 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:24:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ToqwCzJMHFxOSOeE6bCTIZjTFz84MvEyGlrzsy2nUIs=; b=OsLEIfHtuzcN49ayofO3OxhovT3JqoMtewovc4PhKADN9P4zNW8mUsl/lnga18UgXX fcarj/6QpB9c6EOsJWGcLZYRBJ2SZRQc6x5SxK56RdDwMJPLiE4KznACEEHiktYgukk1 qUNoU/az7yaf8/Hhol97tbunDI6vOlmt7jRRI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=c6ybDJlhYcB23Hj8Z9NLNQM21DGdxmTcpRI8sm6zF4wpUHykQnFzUNJfF+/OazblzM m/Btvv1VV5n40J0OQZFpammMn7vMJ7MSIetZuhjTLl3DkjH5gB/IFf61AN6H3M4NHNTg LE6D0ka8SGwgPvIcauG1eRaCujra9cebQMuYk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.177.69 with SMTP id bh5mr990720icb.367.1295450673209; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.241.133 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:24:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <005701cbb73e$5ccee770$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> References: <005701cbb73e$5ccee770$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:24:33 +0000 Message-ID: From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: Re: VLF Earth Mode does NOT need an NoV - official at last Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8cae33629c049a349d0c X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d256.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40984d37026f4c38 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --90e6ba6e8cae33629c049a349d0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mal, I am unaware of the situation with cave radio and licences. With regard to UK VLF experimenters I don't think it is true that *everyone*necessarily wants to radiate a far-field signal as far as possible. Certainly all the current NoV holders would like that, although with my small antennas I don't hold out much hope here. There is another set of experimenters who have for 40-50 years or longer played with earth mode "through the ground" communications. The 18.1.11 OFCOM email does appear to give a tacit go-ahead for *anyone*= to experiment with essentially non-radiating earth mode conduction without re= al restriction on a non-interference basis. To my knowledge, this is the very first time anyone at a UK government telecoms authority (Post Office, MPT and now OFCOM) has *ever* made this statement. It may be semantics, but I believe this is an important statement. 73s Roger G3XBM On 18 January 2011 18:34, mal hamilton wrote: > Two issues here > No NOV required for Earth Mode (conduction/induction) applicable to Cave > divers where it is not intended to propagate a signal into the ether, bu= t to > communicate through the earth. > however > Since it seems to be the intention by the majority posting on this > reflector interested in frequencies around 9 Kcs and below to propagate/= emit > a radio signal to be intercepted some kilometres or hundreds of kilokeme= tres > then a NOV or Licence seems necessary. > so > what is the object of this clarification, it seems irrelevant to the > intentions of most engaged in VLF experiments as far as I can make out. > ie everyone is trying to emit a RF signal with the best Far Field cover= age > hoping to cover the best possible range, hundreds of Kilometres. > Is someone trying to hoodwink OFCOM. > g3kev > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Roger Lapthorn > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; G6ALB ; > sub9khz@yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:11 PM > *Subject:* LF: VLF Earth Mode does NOT need an NoV - official at last > > Today I received this letter from OFCOM, which clarifies the legality of > operating so called "earth mode" (conduction/induction via the ground) > experiments at frequencies below 9kHz in the UK. Note the sentence in Pa= ul's > letter saying, "*We would not normally issue NoVs for communications usi= ng > non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations i.e. where you rely only on > conducted emissions and where there are no intentional radiated emission= s. > **"**. * > > Wanting to check earth mode propagation behaviour at a series of > frequencies *below* 9kHz to see how results compared (earlier tests at > 0.838kHz seemed around 10dB better than at 8.76kHz), I asked OFCOM if I > needed an NoV extension to be legal. One could also argue that such test= s at > frequencies *above* 9kHz would also be legal as long as it does not caus= e > any "Undue Interference to any wireless telegraphy" and one was not > intending to radiate. > > This sounds a wholly pragmatic answer from a government body. > > Roger, >> >> >> >> Rod Wilkinson has now left Ofcom , so I=92m responding to your query. >> >> >> >> You should seek you own legal advice as Ofcom is unable to give legal >> advice, however, we would issue NoVs, where appropriate, for wireless >> telegraphy apparatus/stations. >> >> >> >> In the case of the 9 kHz band NoV we currently stipulate the frequency >> band only around 9 kHz as discussed with the Met Office and we do not= intend >> to issue NoVs for lower frequencies in the band. We would not normally= issue >> NoVs for communications using non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/station= s >> i.e. where you rely only on conducted emissions and where there are no >> intentional radiated emissions. * >> * >> >> >> >> I would also draw your attention to other relevant legislation (e.g. >> Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006) and the Terms of the Amateur Licence and= in >> particular to clause 7(3); *=93Notwithstanding any other terms of this >> Licence, the Licensee shall ensure that the Radio Equipment is designed= , >> constructed, maintained and used so that its use does not cause any Und= ue >> Interference to any wireless telegraphy=94.* >> >> ** >> >> I am also copying in Ash Gohil in the Ofcom Licensing Centre who is in= the >> team that Rod worked in. Please address any further queries to him in= the >> first instance. >> >> ** >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> ** >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> *:: Paul Fonseka** >> *Spectrum Policy Group-Business Radio >> +44 (0) 20 7981 3116 >> *paul.fonseka@ofcom.org.uk* >> > > Hope this is of interest. > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > -- > g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > www.g3xbm.co.uk > www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm > G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 > <#12d9a6d9c2486563_> > <#12d9a6d9c2486563_> <#12d9a6d9c2486563_> <#12d9a6d9c2486563_> > > --=20 g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ www.g3xbm.co.uk www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 <#> <#> <#> <#> --90e6ba6e8cae33629c049a349d0c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mal,

I am unaware of the situation with cave radio and licences.=

With regard to UK VLF experimenters I don't think it is true= that everyone necessarily wants to radiate a far-field signal as= far as possible. Certainly all the current NoV holders would like that,= although with my small antennas I don't hold out much hope here. Ther= e is another set of experimenters who have for 40-50 years or longer playe= d with earth mode "through the ground" communications.

The 18.1.11 OFCOM email does appear to give a tacit go-ahead for an= yone to experiment with essentially non-radiating earth mode conductio= n without real restriction on a non-interference basis. To my knowledge,= this is the very first time anyone at a UK government telecoms authority= (Post Office, MPT and now OFCOM) has ever made this statement.
It may be semantics, but I believe this is an important statement.
=
73s
Roger G3XBM

On 18 January 201= 1 18:34, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote:
Two issues here
No NOV required for Earth Mode=20 (conduction/induction) applicable to Cave divers where it is not intended= to=20 propagate a signal into the ether, but to communicate through the=20 earth.
however
Since it seems to be the intention by= the majority=20 posting on this reflector interested in frequencies around 9 Kcs and=20 below=A0to propagate/emit a radio signal to be intercepted some kilometres= or=20 hundreds of kilokemetres then a NOV or Licence seems necessary.
so
what is the object=A0of this clarific= ation, it=20 seems irrelevant to the intentions of most engaged in VLF experiments as= far as=20 I can make out.
ie everyone is trying to emit a RF si= gnal=20 =A0with the best=A0Far Field coverage hoping to cover the best possible=20 range, hundreds of Kilometres.
Is someone trying to=20 hoodwink=A0OFCOM.
g3kev
=A0
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011= 3:11=20 PM
Subject: LF: VLF Earth Mode does= NOT need=20 an NoV - official at last

Today I received this letter from OFCOM,= which=20 clarifies the legality of operating so called "earth mode"=20 (conduction/induction via the ground) experiments at frequencies below= 9kHz in=20 the UK. Note the sentence in Paul's letter saying, "We would not normally issue NoVs for=20 communications using non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations i.e.=20 =A0where you rely only on conducted emissions and where there are no=20 intentional radiated emissions.".

Wanting to check= =20 earth mode propagation behaviour at a series of frequencies below= 9kHz=20 to see how results compared (earlier tests at 0.838kHz seemed around 10d= B=20 better than at 8.76kHz), I asked OFCOM if I needed an NoV extension to= be=20 legal. One could also argue that such tests at frequencies above= 9kHz=20 would also be legal as long as it does not cause any &q= uot;Undue=20 Interference to any wireless telegraphy" and one was not intending= to=20 radiate.

This sounds a wholly pragmatic answer from a gove= rnment=20 body.

Roger,

=A0

Rod Wilkinson has now left Ofc= om , so I=92m=20 responding to your query.

=A0

You should seek you own legal= advice as=20 Ofcom is unable to give legal advice, however, we would issue NoVs, wh= ere=20 appropriate, for wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations.

=A0

In the case of the 9 kHz band= NoV we=20 currently stipulate the frequency band only around 9 kHz as discussed= with=20 the Met Office and we do not intend to issue NoVs for lower frequencie= s in=20 the band. We would not normally issue NoVs for communications using=20 non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations i.e. =A0where you rely only= on=20 conducted emissions and where there are no intentional radiated emissi= ons.=20

=A0

I would also draw your attenti= on to other=20 relevant legislation (e.g. Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006) and the Terms= of=20 the Amateur Licence and in particular to clause 7(3);=20 =93Notwithstanding any other terms of this Licence, the Lice= nsee=20 shall ensure that the Radio Equipment is designed, constructed, mainta= ined=20 and used so that its use does not cause any Undue Interference to any= =20 wireless telegraphy=94.

=A0

I am also copying in Ash Gohil= in the Ofcom=20 Licensing Centre who is in the team that Rod worked in. Please address= any=20 further queries to him in the first instance.

=A0

I hope this helps.

=A0

Kind regards,

=A0

Paul

=A0

:: Paul Fonseka
<= /b>Spectrum=20 Policy Group-Business Radio
+44 (0) 20 7981 3116
paul.fonseka@ofcom.org.uk=20


Hope this is of interest.

73s
Roge= r=20 G3XBM
--
g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
www.g3xbm.co.uk
www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
G3XBM=A0=A0 GQRP 1678= =A0=A0=A0 ISWL=20 G11088
3D""
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3D"" =A0 3D"" =A0 =A0 =A0
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=A0= =20
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--
g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
www.g3xbm.co.uk
= www.youtub= e.com/user/g3xbm
G3XBM=A0=A0 GQRP 1678= =A0=A0=A0 ISWL G11088
= 3D""
=20 =20
=A0 =A0
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3D"" =A0 3D"" =A0 =A0 =A0
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