Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dc03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dc03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.131]) by air-mc07.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMC071-a97b4d372df2329; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 13:31:14 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id D7161380000B3; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 13:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PfcnT-0002Tj-Gc for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:30:19 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PfcnS-0002Ta-JQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:30:18 +0000 Received: from out1.ip08ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.244]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PfcnP-0005rT-Lz for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:30:18 +0000 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvgFALO8Nk1Ok8tN/2dsb2JhbACCQI9PA5I1c7JvAYwrhVAEgV+MfoJe X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.60,345,1291593600"; d="scan'208,217";a="477064801" Received: from unknown (HELO xphd97xgq27nyf) ([78.147.203.77]) by out1.ip08ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 19 Jan 2011 18:30:06 +0000 Message-ID: <004101cbb806$e1151180$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <005701cbb73e$5ccee770$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:29:54 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: Re: VLF Earth Mode does NOT need an NoV - official at last Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01CBB806.E091FED0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=HTML_70_80,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40834d372df05a46 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CBB806.E091FED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger A permit was never necessary for Dummy Loads, RF pumped into the groun= d (induction) for any Frequency not just LF/MF. If one intends to transmit a RF carrier via an antenna with the intent= ion of being received by another then a permit is required and this se= ems to be the intention of those now engaged on the DREAMERS band g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roger Lapthorn=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: VLF Earth Mode does NOT need an NoV - official= at last Hi Mal, I am unaware of the situation with cave radio and licences. With regard to UK VLF experimenters I don't think it is true that ev= eryone necessarily wants to radiate a far-field signal as far as possi= ble. Certainly all the current NoV holders would like that, although= with my small antennas I don't hold out much hope here. There is anot= her set of experimenters who have for 40-50 years or longer played wit= h earth mode "through the ground" communications. The 18.1.11 OFCOM email does appear to give a tacit go-ahead for any= one to experiment with essentially non-radiating earth mode conduction= without real restriction on a non-interference basis. To my knowledge= , this is the very first time anyone at a UK government telecoms autho= rity (Post Office, MPT and now OFCOM) has ever made this statement.=20 It may be semantics, but I believe this is an important statement. 73s Roger G3XBM On 18 January 2011 18:34, mal hamilton wrote= : Two issues here No NOV required for Earth Mode (conduction/induction) applicable= to Cave divers where it is not intended to propagate a signal into th= e ether, but to communicate through the earth. however Since it seems to be the intention by the majority posting on this= reflector interested in frequencies around 9 Kcs and below to propaga= te/emit a radio signal to be intercepted some kilometres or hundreds= of kilokemetres then a NOV or Licence seems necessary. so=20 what is the object of this clarification, it seems irrelevant to= the intentions of most engaged in VLF experiments as far as I can mak= e out. ie everyone is trying to emit a RF signal with the best Far Field= coverage hoping to cover the best possible range, hundreds of Kilomet= res. Is someone trying to hoodwink OFCOM. g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roger Lapthorn=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; G6ALB ; sub9khz@yahoogroups.c= om=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:11 PM Subject: LF: VLF Earth Mode does NOT need an NoV - official at= last Today I received this letter from OFCOM, which clarifies the leg= ality of operating so called "earth mode" (conduction/induction via th= e ground) experiments at frequencies below 9kHz in the UK. Note the se= ntence in Paul's letter saying, "We would not normally issue NoVs for= communications using non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations i.e.= where you rely only on conducted emissions and where there are no in= tentional radiated emissions.".=20 Wanting to check earth mode propagation behaviour at a series of= frequencies below 9kHz to see how results compared (earlier tests at= 0.838kHz seemed around 10dB better than at 8.76kHz), I asked OFCOM if= I needed an NoV extension to be legal. One could also argue that such= tests at frequencies above 9kHz would also be legal as long as it doe= s not cause any "Undue Interference to any wireless telegraphy" and on= e was not intending to radiate. This sounds a wholly pragmatic answer from a government body.=20 Roger, Rod Wilkinson has now left Ofcom , so I=92m responding to your= query.=20 You should seek you own legal advice as Ofcom is unable to giv= e legal advice, however, we would issue NoVs, where appropriate, for= wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations.=20 In the case of the 9 kHz band NoV we currently stipulate the= frequency band only around 9 kHz as discussed with the Met Office and= we do not intend to issue NoVs for lower frequencies in the band. We= would not normally issue NoVs for communications using non-wireless= telegraphy apparatus/stations i.e. where you rely only on conducted= emissions and where there are no intentional radiated emissions.=20 I would also draw your attention to other relevant legislation= (e.g. Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006) and the Terms of the Amateur Lice= nce and in particular to clause 7(3); =93Notwithstanding any other ter= ms of this Licence, the Licensee shall ensure that the Radio Equipment= is designed, constructed, maintained and used so that its use does no= t cause any Undue Interference to any wireless telegraphy=94. I am also copying in Ash Gohil in the Ofcom Licensing Centre= who is in the team that Rod worked in. Please address any further que= ries to him in the first instance. I hope this helps. Kind regards, Paul :: Paul Fonseka Spectrum Policy Group-Business Radio +44 (0) 20 7981 3116 paul.fonseka@ofcom.org.uk=20 Hope this is of interest. 73s Roger G3XBM --=20 g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ www.g3xbm.co.uk www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 --=20 g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ www.g3xbm.co.uk www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CBB806.E091FED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger
A permit was never necessary for Dumm= y Loads, RF=20 pumped into the ground (induction) for any Frequency not just=20 LF/MF.
If one intends to transmit a RF carri= er via an=20 antenna with the intention of being received by another then a permit= is=20 required and this seems to be the intention of those now engaged on th= e DREAMERS=20 band
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 19,= 2011 3:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: VLF Eart= h Mode does=20 NOT need an NoV - official at last

Hi Mal,

I am unaware of the situation with cav= e radio=20 and licences.

With regard to UK VLF experimenters I don't thi= nk it is=20 true that everyone necessarily wants to radiate a far-field= signal as=20 far as possible. Certainly all the current NoV holders would like th= at,=20 although with my small antennas I don't hold out much hope here. The= re is=20 another set of experimenters who have for 40-50 years or longer play= ed with=20 earth mode "through the ground" communications.

The 18.1.11= OFCOM email=20 does appear to give a tacit go-ahead for anyone to experiment= with=20 essentially non-radiating earth mode conduction without real restric= tion on a=20 non-interference basis. To my knowledge, this is the very first time= anyone at=20 a UK government telecoms authority (Post Office, MPT and now OFCOM)= has=20 ever made this statement.

It may be semantics, but I= believe=20 this is an important statement.

73s
Roger G3XBM

On 18 January 2011 18:34, mal hamilton <g3kev= mal@talktalk.net>=20 wrote:
Two issues here
No NOV required for Earth Mode=20 (conduction/induction) applicable to Cave divers where it is not= intended to=20 propagate a signal into the ether, but to communicate through the= =20 earth.
however
Since it seems to be the intentio= n by the=20 majority posting on this reflector interested in frequencies aroun= d 9 Kcs=20 and below to propagate/emit a radio signal to be intercepted= some=20 kilometres or hundreds of kilokemetres then a NOV or Licence seems= =20 necessary.
so
what is the object of this= clarification,=20 it seems irrelevant to the intentions of most engaged in VLF exper= iments as=20 far as I can make out.
ie everyone is trying to emit a= RF signal=20  with the best Far Field coverage hoping to cover the be= st=20 possible range, hundreds of Kilometres.
Is someone trying to=20 hoodwink OFCOM.
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roger Lapthorn
Sent: Tuesday, January 18= , 2011 3:11=20 PM
Subject: LF: VLF Earth Mo= de does NOT=20 need an NoV - official at last

Today I received this letter from= OFCOM, which=20 clarifies the legality of operating so called "earth mode"=20 (conduction/induction via the ground) experiments at frequencies= below=20 9kHz in the UK. Note the sentence in Paul's letter saying, "We would not normally issu= e NoVs for=20 communications using non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations= i.e.=20  where you rely only on conducted emissions and where there= are no=20 intentional radiated emissions.".

Wanti= ng to=20 check earth mode propagation behaviour at a series of frequencie= s=20 below 9kHz to see how results compared (earlier tests at= 0.838kHz=20 seemed around 10dB better than at 8.76kHz), I asked OFCOM if I= needed an=20 NoV extension to be legal. One could also argue that such tests= at=20 frequencies above 9kHz would also be legal as long as it= does not=20 cause any "Undue Interference to any wireless tel= egraphy" and=20 one was not intending to radiate.

This sounds a wh= olly=20 pragmatic answer from a government body.

Roger,

 

Rod Wilkinson has now left= Ofcom , so=20 I=92m responding to your query.

 

You should seek you own le= gal advice as=20 Ofcom is unable to give legal advice, however, we would issue= NoVs,=20 where appropriate, for wireless telegraphy apparatus/stations.= =20

 

In the case of the 9 kHz= band NoV we=20 currently stipulate the frequency band only around 9 kHz as di= scussed=20 with the Met Office and we do not intend to issue NoVs for low= er=20 frequencies in the band. We would not normally issue NoVs for= =20 communications using non-wireless telegraphy apparatus/station= s i.e.=20  where you rely only on conducted emissions and where the= re are no=20 intentional radiated emissions.

 

I would also draw your att= ention to=20 other relevant legislation (e.g. Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006)= and the=20 Terms of the Amateur Licence and in particular to clause 7(3);= =20 =93Notwithstanding any other terms of this Licence,= the Licensee=20 shall ensure that the Radio Equipment is designed, constructed= ,=20 maintained and used so that its use does not cause any Undue= =20 Interference to any wireless telegraphy=94.

 

I am also copying in Ash= Gohil in the=20 Ofcom Licensing Centre who is in the team that Rod worked in.= Please=20 address any further queries to him in the first instance.

 

I hope this helps.<= /P>

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

:: Paul=20 Fonseka
Spectrum Policy Group-Business Radio
= +44 (0) 20=20 7981 3116
paul.fonseka@ofcom.org.uk=20


Hope this is of interest.

73s=
Roger=20 G3XBM
--
g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
www.g3xbm.co.uk
www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
G3XBM   GQRP=20 1678    ISWL G11088
3D""
   <= /TD> =20



--
g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
www.g3xbm.co.uk
www.youtube.com/user/g3xb= m
G3XBM&= nbsp;  GQRP 1678    ISWL=20 G11088
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