Message-ID: <75A69A6CEBAA4731B5F892F19791F376@AGB>
From: "Graham" <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
References: <35728.39676.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <008f01cb8f64$fb207120$4001a8c0@lark>
In-Reply-To: <008f01cb8f64$fb207120$4001a8c0@lark>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 01:37:38 -0000
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Subject: Re: LF: Any  ADSL2  BBand router / RF proof ?
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UK.....and running down our best assets.

Not mention  selling the  family  jewels  , or in the  case of the
government .. polishing them ?

G..

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan Melia" <alan.melia@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 1:29 AM
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Subject: Re: LF: Any  ADSL2  BBand router / RF proof ?

>
> Peter, you can blame the governments of the 1980s they would rather give
> entertainment licences to silly little cable TV companies that all went 
> bust
> and were hoovered up by NTL for a song. BT offered to cable the UK with
> fibre to the customers premises, if it was allowed to recover the 
> investment
> with an entertainment licence, but all the vested interests cried foul. 
> They
> didnt want competition from BT. So when DSL came along it had to try an
> build a data business on copper, using a "stone-age" technology. It doesnt
> help being forced by the regulator to sell the whatever bandwith the
> back-bedroom Telco want at less that cost....you (or BT subscribers) are
> subsidising Virgin, AOL, and the rest. None of the so-called competition 
> put
> their own cables in, or built any exchanges, they just want cheap profits
> from the assets, your assets, (the copper) already there. NTL hasnt made a
> profit on its cable TV because of the competition from Sky. I am not
> actually "out in the country", but I cant get an NTL/Virgin connection 
> they
> wont cable out here, not enough money in it. If you have to have cheap
> internet connection, you get just what you pay for. Yet the Taxpayer is
> paying 50% of every Railway season ticket cost.
>
> To say that there is no expertise is rubbish....what do you think all the
> trunk cables are? They are not copper. Anyway a lot of the cable
> installation "expertise" is bought in. The real experience is required at
> the ends and in commissioning. Pulling cable just needs muscle not brains.
> Countries that had no infrastructure put fibre in straight away, and their
> govenments were farsighted enough to see the benefits of subsidising it. 
> Its
> just another case of short-sighted short termism we are so good at in the
> UK.....and running down our best assets.
>
> Alan G3NYK
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "M0FMT" <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
>
>
> Hi Ken
>
> Thanks for the "teach in". Tell me why is BT so keen on copper wire it has
> nothing but disadvantage.Open Reach must spend millions of pounds trying 
> to
> make it work. And now with these raids on the ducting because of the value
> of copper it make even more sense to change over to fibre. However I am
> being told it will never happen because on lack of expertise within BT.
> These comments come from Open Reach at Liverpool. Have you any idea why 
> they
> don't import some engineering talent?
>
> 73 petefmt
>
> I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP.
>
> --- On Sun, 28/11/10, Ken <ken.h.wright@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Ken <ken.h.wright@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Sunday, 28 November, 2010, 20:13
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Everyone.
> I think you will find that with your line length from the serving exchange
> (7km)? the S/N ratio will be poor, a minimum of 10dB is required, my 
> copper
> connection is about 2.7km which is considered to be approaching the limit,
> although the tests at the customer NTE showed that 3Mbt/s.should have been
> possible. At these line lengths any rf will swamp the DSL signal. I have
> discussed this problem at length several time with the people I worked 
> with
> at Adastral Park ( commonly known as BT Labs), both DSL and EMC, the 
> problem
> is compounded if a) you have a long length of overhead drop wire, b) the
> number and configuration of any internal extensions, and c) the position 
> of
> the router with respect to the incomming NTE (master socket). If the
> dropwire is long, the induced common mode interference will be transformed
> into differential mode before it reaches the router, any internal 
> extension
> wiring will increase attenuation, especially if it is a 'star
> configuration.
> The router should be as close as possible to the incoming NTE. A spectral
> analysis of my line revealed that there were no DSL carriers above 500kHz,
> hence not being able to use 500kHz, if the router shuts down because a
> corrupted incoming signal, it will start a 're-training' sequence with the
> DSLAM in the serving exchange, however if either the line or the router is
> changed, the exchange equipment will then go though a process of 
> determining
> the best possible data speed of the new configuration, thia can take up to
> ten days, if during this time any of the speedtest sites are used 
> different
> data rates will be loged.
>
> I changed my 1st generation BT Homehub router for an older BT Voyager 
> 2500,
> which improved the situation with the HF bands but not at 500kHz, even 
> with
> high value common mode chokes on everything in sight. The problem was
> finally solved by changing over to BT Infinity Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC)
> with copper line length of 400m giving data speeds of 14Mbt/s.
>
> I hope some of this is both of use and interest you all.
>
> 73
> Ken
> M0KHW
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: M0FMT
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 10:08 AM
> Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Again Graham and LF
>
> Hmmmmm OK looks like you are in better shape than me. A local station who
> has difficulty with his ADSL has put Ferrite clamp on filters on all leads
> in and out of the Modem including the power supply lead. He claims (and I
> have no reason to doubt him) that this has solved his problems. The modem 
> is
> the new BT Black Box one. I have one of those although much more reliable
> and faster it still suffers from my description below. The issue I have
> appears not to be Modem related but exchange based.
>
> I talk to Larry regularly on 4m so next time, if I remember, I will get 
> the
> details of his solution Viz ferrite type and where on the lines he is
> fitting them and forward it to you. It may help.
> As before good luck with your efforts; what ever success you get please
> publish it. Ken M0KHW Luton has an ADSL problem too so several people 
> would
> be interested I am sure.
>
> 73 es GL petefmt
>
> I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP.
>
> --- On Fri, 26/11/10, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 0:49
>
>
>
> Ok Pete
>
> This is the new router , as its in the same place as the old one , with
> (now) the same filters , the PC is linked with a short network cable , the
> rest of the pc's are linked by radio. its the adsl like thats failing
>
> The edimax router was quite robust , never had a drop out on HF and only
> over 200 watts , feed , on 500 would stop the link , this one fails with 
> 25
> watts on 160 .. the router is off most of the day and night , only on with
> the pc , the new router is faster , from 6 (old) meg to 9 med down and 
> 500k
> (old) to 890 k upload , but if it keeps dropping out with no cure then its
> not much use for my usage
>
> G,
>
>
>
>
> From: M0FMT
> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:26 AM
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Graham
>
> Are you sure the problem is the router?
>
> 136, 500, 160 and to some extent 80m here are kill the ADSL. Even at very
> low powers. If your ADSL is cut during your transmissions only and resumes
> at the original speed directly afterwards it may well be the router being
> temporarily being knocked out. If however you line stays down for a period
> of time say several hours then it is not the router. What you are doing is
> putting noise (owing to RF) onto your line which is being picked up at the
> exchange DSLAM. The exchange equipment (DSLAM) serving your line will 
> reduce
> data speed to ensure that a connection of sorts is maintained. This speed
> can go down to below 80kb/s from which it will not recover without 
> technical
> intervention by BT Open Reach. If it goes down to about 300/500kb/s it may
> well recover it's original speed over a period of time BT quote 72 hours 
> yes
> 72 hours (I think this time period is not a technical issue but one to 
> stall
> the punters off). On a good day the recovery period can be
> speeded up by turning the router off and disconnecting every thing from 
> the
> line and waiting. This makes a quiet line for the automatic recovery to
> work.... on a good day!!! If you don't have enough life left to wait for 
> BT
> to physically do some thing then the best thing is to write to BT HQ in
> London to the their CEO (his name and location can be found with a bit of
> research) and tell him what you think of his outfit. I know from 
> experience
> he does not like receiving this kind of letter. You may have your ISP as 
> Joe
> Blogs Internet Provider dot Com but in reality it is all provided by BT 
> they
> own the final mile and the exchange ...... legal niceties to one side it 
> is
> a fact.
> If you get a good Broad Band data rate of say 4/8mb/s your transmissions 
> on
> LF/MF will only slightly degrade your ADSL but if like me on the end of
> 7.5km of copper its only 1/1.5mb/s on a very good day, RF will wipe out 
> your
> ADSL for a week or more. So without a lot of letter writing to BT and 
> angry
> phone calls your ASDL will not return to original speed..
>
> To maintain a usable data rate on Broad Band here I can not use 136 or
> 500kc/s above a few Milli Watts at TX output about 1 Watt on 160m 80 about
> 50Watts and on 60m and above 100Watts (possibly more but not tested yet).
> Also the longer you stay on the worst the speed degrades.My guess is with
> ADSL2 having a much wider bandwidth the problem for Amateurs will extend
> further up the spectrum than shown above.
>
> Hope you are not in my situation....... Oh and don't believe all this 
> Fibre
> stuff. Open Reach have told me that one reason why Fibre is not being 
> rolled
> out like the Virgin setup is that there are only a few BT people capable 
> of
> working with Fibre. This is the reason why BT is Wedded to copper wire. So
> we locally have Internet breakdowns owing to Junkies and the like ripping
> the Copper cables out of BT ducting to pay for drugs... Bedfordshire has 
> had
> Internet disconnections for days owing to this phenomenon. So along with
> cable theft and the lack of trained staff a proper interference free Broad
> Band coverage using fibre in this country is looking particularly bleak.
>
> Good luck!
>
> 73 es GL petefmt
>
> I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP.
>
> --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> From: Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
> Subject: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 22:06
>
>
>
> Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
>
> Just upgraded to ADSL2 with a orange net-gear router/wifi router, now 15
> watts on 160 kills the connection
>
> router is in the same location as the old edimax , which kept running with
> 200 watts on 500 K and 400 on Hf
>
> ? any RF proof ADSL2 on the market >
>
> Tnx - G..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>