Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dh01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dh01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.65.21]) by air-de05.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDE054-5eb54cd955a738c; Tue, 09 Nov 2010 09:07:36 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dh01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 104AA380002C2; Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PFopL-0008TG-AG for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:05:35 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PFopK-0008T7-G8 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:05:34 +0000 Received: from relay2.uni-heidelberg.de ([129.206.210.211]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PFopJ-0006MF-E0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:05:34 +0000 Received: from freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.29.204]) by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oA9E4lV2011599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2010 15:04:50 +0100 Received: from [129.206.29.99] (pc99.iup.uni-heidelberg.de [129.206.29.99]) by freitag.iup.uni-heidelberg.de (8.12.11.20060308/8.11.2) with ESMTP id oA9E5QVd032655 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 2010 15:05:26 +0100 Message-ID: <4CD95487.1000206@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 15:02:47 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; de; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100227 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <798586.46009.qm@web111901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6EEAA299A2084FACB780B4F9A675C31C@JimPC> <304036.93066.qm@web111919.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CD83D22.50202@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <918071.9577.qm@web111903.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CD874CE.7050003@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <113093.88150.qm@web111908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <113093.88150.qm@web111908.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD=1.426 Subject: Re: LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080400060601030106010603" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d41154cd955a449a5 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --------------080400060601030106010603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by relay2.uni-heidelberg.de id oA9E4lV2011599 Hi Daniele, OK now. So you have done it right. The generated noise is well above the= =20 noise of the soundcard+the noise of the antenna. And the noise of the=20 soundcard+the noise of the antenna is well above the noise of the=20 soundcard (you mentioned -148 dB). So, you should see the actual=20 frequency response of the active antenna in Figure_1 :-) As far as i=20 understand it (am not an expert i think ;-) ). And now, what do you want to do now? :-) 73, Stefan BTW: You are in a good position to my earth antenna, almost perfect! :-) Am 08.11.2010 23:34, schrieb Daniele Tincani: > Stefan, > the soundcard is a M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI. The sample rate is=20 > 48KHz at 24 bits/sample (as configured on SpecLab, but the same=20 > is reported by both Windows and M-Audio control panels). The FFT=20 > settings are those I get by selecting the dafault "factory" settings=20 > on SpecLab, I attach a JPEG of the configuration panel for clarity. > So, I have the generator at its minimum amplitude, giving -86dB (at=20 > the output of the BBB-4) measured on SpecLab at 9KHz. Attached here as= =20 > Figure_1. > Now I switch the generator OFF (power switch OFF) and leave all the=20 > rest untouched. The result is showed in Figure_2. > Best regards > Daniele > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Stefan Sch=E4fer > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Mon, November 8, 2010 11:08:14 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests > > Hi Daniele, > > -148 dB is a very low noise level for a soundcard! But what is the=20 > sample rate and FFT settings? I remember you have a good one, not just= =20 > a PC internal or cheep USB card... > > Again, what happens when you switch the noise generator OFF (after=20 > generating -86 dB) and let the active antenna and PC settings as is? > > 73, Stefan > > Am 08.11.2010 22:53, schrieb Daniele Tincani: >> Hello Stefan, LF, VLF, >> SS> So just look at 9 kHz without the generator and then increase the= =20 >> noise gernerator level so that the noise increases say 20 dB. >> DT> OK I started with the minimum adjustable level on the Agilent=20 >> 33120A (50mVpp) and got about -86dB on SpecLab at 9KHz. Then I=20 >> increased the output from the instrument up to 510mVpp and got about=20 >> -66dB on SpecLab. This sound OK to me (20log(510/50) =3D 20.2dB). The= =20 >> response curve is still very similar to the simulated one. >> At 9KHz without the generator, with the BBB-4 switched off and max=20 >> attenuation on soundcard input (I have a potentiometer on the=20 >> isolation transformer to the PC) I read about -148dB on SpecLab at 9KHz= . >> >> SS> What i would worry about is the high gain arround 2 kHz, where=20 >> the mains hum is dominant, even if the frequency response (without an= =20 >> input signal) would be flat. Maybe this could become a problem if the= =20 >> levels get so high that the amp stages become nonlinear and/or the=20 >> soundcard input. >> DT> Yes, the BBB-4 was explicitly designed by McGreevy for=20 >> reception of natural radio emissions in locations far away from power= =20 >> lines, buildings, trees, etc. (basically, in the middle of a desert :-)= ). >> >> >> SS> But just try what happend in reality!! In my experience it is a=20 >> good indicator to see the diurnal noise levels having a minimum at=20 >> arround 8...10 UTC. If the level difference is about 10...15 dB=20 >> (depending on the WX of course) it is a good first step to assume a=20 >> sensitive RX. >> >> DT> Good test, I will try probably next saturday. I could start say=20 >> at 6.00 UTC and try to collect as many hours of a broadband spectrum=20 >> as allowed by residual battery life. >> Cheers >> Daniele >> >> >> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> *From:* Stefan Sch=E4fer >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Sent:* Mon, November 8, 2010 7:10:42 PM >> *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests >> >> Hi Daniele, Jim, LF, >> >> Am 08.11.2010 16:47, schrieb Daniele Tincani: >>> >>> Also consider that when I created a short circuit on the antenna=20 >>> input of the rx (see Q2 in my e-mail), I got a response curve on=20 >>> SpecLab similar to that I had with the Agilent, but with a peak=20 >>> level about 30dB lower (about -107dB around f=3D2KHz on SpecLab). >> This means that your generated noise level was to low and you have=20 >> observed the soundcards noise, at least outside the region of 2 kHz.=20 >> So just look at 9 kHz without the generator and then increase the=20 >> noise gernerator level so that the noise increases say 20 dB. >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>> *From:* James Moritz >>> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>> *Sent:* Mon, November 8, 2010 3:22:59 PM >>> *Subject:* LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests >>> >>> >>> The filter rolls the gain off rapidly below about 1kHz and above=20 >>> about 10kHz. So this would be OK for whistlers and 9kHz reception,=20 >>> but would attenuate VLF utilities at higher frequencies. >>> >> Normally the MSKs are so strong that an attenuation of say 20 dB=20 >> (compared to 9 kHz) will probably no problem. 20 dB gain reduction=20 >> would not even mean 20 dB S/N reduction... >> >> What i would worry about is the high gain arround 2 kHz, where the=20 >> mains hum is dominant, even if the frequency response (without an=20 >> input signal) would be flat. Maybe this could become a problem if the= =20 >> levels get so high that the amp stages become nonlinear and/or the=20 >> soundcard input. >> >> But just try what happend in reality!! In my experience it is a good=20 >> indicator to see the diurnal noise levels having a minimum at arround= =20 >> 8...10 UTC. If the level difference is about 10...15 dB (depending on= =20 >> the WX of course) it is a good first step to assume a sensitive RX.=20 >> The rest can be seen in tests where a far field signal is generated=20 >> on the Dreamers Band ;-) >> >> >> 73, Stefan/DK7FC >> > --------------080400060601030106010603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Daniele,

OK now. So you have done it right. The generated noise is well above the noise of the soundcard+the noise of the antenna. And the noise of the soundcard+the noise of the antenna is well above the noise of the soundcard (you mentioned -148 dB). So, you should see the actual frequency response of the active antenna in Figure_1 :-) As far as i understand it (am not an expert i think ;-) ).

And now, what do you want to do now? :-)

73, Stefan

BTW: You are in a good position to my earth antenna, almost perfect! :-)


Am 08.11.2010 23:34, schrieb Daniele Tincani:
Stefan,
 
the soundcard is a M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI. The sample rate is 48KHz at 24 bits/sample (as configured on SpecLab, but the same is reported by both Windows and M-Audio control panels). The FFT settings are those I get by selecting the dafault "factory" settings on SpecLab, I attach a JPEG of the configuration panel for clarity.
 
So, I have the generator at its minimum amplitude, giving -86dB (at the output of the BBB-4) measured on SpecLab at 9KHz. Attached here as Figure_1.
Now I switch the generator OFF (power switch OFF) and leave all the rest untouched. The result is showed in Figure_2.
 
Best regards
Daniele
From: Stefan Schäfer <schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 11:08:14 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests

Hi Daniele,

-148 dB is a very low noise level for a soundcard! But what is the sample rate and FFT settings? I remember you have a good one, not just a PC internal or cheep USB card...

Again, what happens when you switch the noise generator OFF (after generating -86 dB) and let the active antenna and PC settings as is?

73, Stefan

Am 08.11.2010 22:53, schrieb Daniele Tincani:
Hello Stefan, LF, VLF,
 
SS> So just look at 9 kHz without the generator and then increase the noise gernerator level so that the noise increases say 20 dB.
 
DT> OK I started with the minimum adjustable level on the Agilent 33120A (50mVpp) and got about -86dB on SpecLab at 9KHz. Then I increased the output from the instrument up to 510mVpp and got about -66dB on SpecLab. This sound OK to me (20log(510/50) = 20.2dB). The response curve is still very similar to the simulated one.
At 9KHz without the generator, with the BBB-4 switched off and max attenuation on soundcard input (I have a potentiometer on the isolation transformer to the PC) I read about -148dB on SpecLab at 9KHz.

SS> What i would worry about is the high gain arround 2 kHz, where the mains hum is dominant, even if the frequency response (without an input signal) would be flat. Maybe this could become a problem if the levels get so high that the amp stages become nonlinear and/or the soundcard input.
DT> Yes, the BBB-4 was explicitly designed by McGreevy for reception of natural radio emissions in locations far away from power lines, buildings, trees, etc. (basically, in the middle of a desert :-)).


SS> But just try what happend in reality!! In my experience it is a good indicator to see the diurnal noise levels having a minimum at arround 8...10 UTC. If the level difference is about 10...15 dB (depending on the WX of course) it is a good first step to assume a sensitive RX.

 

DT> Good test, I will try probably next saturday. I could start say at 6.00 UTC and try to collect as many hours of a broadband spectrum as allowed by residual battery life.
 
Cheers
Daniele


 

From: Stefan Schäfer <schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 7:10:42 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests

Hi Daniele, Jim, LF,

Am 08.11.2010 16:47, schrieb Daniele Tincani:

Also consider that when I created a short circuit on the antenna input of the rx (see Q2 in my e-mail), I got a response curve on SpecLab similar to that I had with the Agilent, but with a peak level about 30dB lower (about -107dB around f=2KHz on SpecLab).
This means that your generated noise level was to low and you have observed the soundcards noise, at least outside the region of 2 kHz. So just look at 9 kHz without the generator and then increase the noise gernerator level so that the noise increases say 20 dB.
From: James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 3:22:59 PM
Subject: LF: Re: BBB-4-like receiver ready for first tests


The filter rolls the gain off rapidly below about 1kHz and above about 10kHz. So this would be OK for whistlers and 9kHz reception, but would attenuate VLF utilities at higher frequencies.

Normally the MSKs are so strong that an attenuation of say 20 dB (compared to 9 kHz) will probably no problem. 20 dB gain reduction would not even mean 20 dB S/N reduction...

What i would worry about is the high gain arround 2 kHz, where the mains hum is dominant, even if the frequency response (without an input signal) would be flat. Maybe this could become a problem if the levels get so high that the amp stages become nonlinear and/or the soundcard input.

But just try what happend in reality!! In my experience it is a good indicator to see the diurnal noise levels having a minimum at arround 8...10 UTC. If the level difference is about 10...15 dB (depending on the WX of course) it is a good first step to assume a sensitive RX. The rest can be seen in tests where a far field signal is generated on the Dreamers Band ;-)


73, Stefan/DK7FC


--------------080400060601030106010603--