Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.21]) by air-ma06.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMA063-b52a4cf2b823e6; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:14:27 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 193C9380000D9; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PMnct-00021Q-ER for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:13:35 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PMncs-00021H-AD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:13:34 +0000 Received: from nm14-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.52]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PMncq-0002Aq-Gr for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:13:34 +0000 Received: from [98.138.90.55] by nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2010 20:13:25 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.238] by tm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2010 20:13:25 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1038.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Nov 2010 20:13:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 290568.48169.bm@omp1038.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 94284 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2010 20:13:24 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=DKIM-Signature:Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=Tsvxni3qcFpahjFlEI9YPjzj9f7P32uo0+w6clCXJKRYS7OmStP8Mkjp2jd8DC0ePaMYKkSpOpc+95y+O38Y/T3n2PGxLONG6qusgelFRXeOuLV0c4tqD1U6jGpF1uPDI/L0SbjTsDwIhJWLoFqVMiC+UAfuPdEmPSxemALUH4o= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1290975204; bh=aIe7fzRDep/keN+lTeLPzS3NcN1pJTnhHG0NNcl0tDo=; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=VIGXHQDnfBYLBji79dQ8eroi7L/wLsggRzZ+SulXPXRweNyyL2ECILdR+P7WEb805NLl2hALm4Dh8fcaeH5I5lyrV8MYJXneKLGcHcb29Y37dT4tySQSxUcMY3y9Q2sxQiLeJZhRSNsMQgMJgEZ0qVIVxuJW8apUo+pErQpDC58= Received: from lindavideo (ken.h.wright@86.186.155.252 with login) by smtp139.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2010 12:13:23 -0800 PST X-Yahoo-SMTP: 9Y6mUHuswBAgnrOsukIiNdFDf95uy_Dz34nY1hlg2liKgYD952sjbg-- X-YMail-OSG: v.CJGP0VM1lyOXflgPDcNwlG4zl1aeQjPvjUrZUWfgYEmrj kjiShjL7OVIkDv1lRYWVwnRDqVoxCc9cqgwusvs5T2n.FRY6Q7pzmyo79PrK kwXis_fdIYa3PzbQqWbvzLA0AHT0IevmqSLojS53PEi_ttrOo2mOkFQQUXih 6rIZ0NCohuQOh9CyISwIUUqbd7pwVOKoLqCKbauFPXSJ6e_9XHN.rdvgEi2r mK7TNvRgKcsbM_MOPGVRMA6eXq_AnsfYVCsimomFVRmAorGeiGsa3m.inGr1 5niS190MT61K9blyn7XovzO2_hYZ4ue41HrQCLQ8IHCijveqsE39KfKPbNBq OTpIh4ITzoVA- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: <25671BC19A084642B38CBC31639E7633@lindavideo> From: "Ken" To: References: <439635.1425.qm@web28101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:13:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.36,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01CB8F38.B37B64A0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d264.2 ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60154cf2b81f10dd X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01CB8F38.B37B64A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone.=20 I think you will find that with your line length from the serving exch= ange (7km)? the S/N ratio will be poor, a minimum of 10dB is require= d, my copper connection is about 2.7km which is considered to be appro= aching the limit, although the tests at the customer NTE showed that= 3Mbt/s.should have been possible. At these line lengths any rf will= swamp the DSL signal. I have discussed this problem at length several= time with the people I worked with at Adastral Park ( commonly known= as BT Labs), both DSL and EMC, the problem is compounded if a) you ha= ve a long length of overhead drop wire, b) the number and configuratio= n of any internal extensions, and c) the position of the router with= respect to the incomming NTE (master socket). If the dropwire is long= , the induced common mode interference will be transformed into differ= ential mode before it reaches the router, any internal extension wirin= g will increase attenuation, especially if it is a 'star configuration= . The router should be as close as possible to the incoming NTE. A spect= ral analysis of my line revealed that there were no DSL carriers above= 500kHz, hence not being able to use 500kHz, if the router shuts down= because a corrupted incoming signal, it will start a 're-training' se= quence with the DSLAM in the serving exchange, however if either the= line or the router is changed, the exchange equipment will then go th= ough a process of determining the best possible data speed of the new= configuration, thia can take up to ten days, if during this time any= of the speedtest sites are used different data rates will be loged. I changed my 1st generation BT Homehub router for an older BT Voyager= 2500, which improved the situation with the HF bands but not at 500k= Hz, even with high value common mode chokes on everything in sight. Th= e problem was finally solved by changing over to BT Infinity Fibre To= The Cabinet (FTTC) with copper line length of 400m giving data speeds= of 14Mbt/s. I hope some of this is both of use and interest you all. 73 Ken M0KHW =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: M0FMT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 10:08 AM Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Hi Again Graham and LF Hmmmmm OK looks like you are in better shape than me. A local= station who has difficulty with his ADSL has put Ferrite clamp on fil= ters on all leads in and out of the Modem including the power supply= lead. He claims (and I have no reason to doubt him) that this has sol= ved his problems. The modem is the new BT Black Box one. I have one of= those although much more reliable and faster it still suffers from my= description below. The issue I have appears not to be Modem related= but exchange based. I talk to Larry regularly on 4m so next time, if I remember,= I will get the details of his solution Viz ferrite type and where on= the lines he is fitting them and forward it to you. It may help.=20 As before good luck with your efforts; what ever success you= get please publish it. Ken M0KHW Luton has an ADSL problem too so sev= eral people would be interested I am sure. 73 es GL petefmt I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community Telco / ISP. --- On Fri, 26/11/10, Graham wrote: From: Graham Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 0:49 Ok Pete=20 This is the new router , as its in the same place as the= old one , with (now) the same filters , the PC is linked with a= short network cable , the rest of the pc's are linked by radio.= its the adsl like thats failing=20 The edimax router was quite robust , never had a drop = out on HF and only over 200 watts , feed , on 500 would stop the= link , this one fails with 25 watts on 160 .. the router is= off most of the day and night , only on with the pc , the = new router is faster , from 6 (old) meg to 9 med down and 500k= (old) to 890 k upload , but if it keeps dropping out with no = cure then its not much use for my usage=20 G, From: M0FMT=20 Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 12:26 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Hi Graham Are you sure the problem is the router? 136, 500, 160 and to some extent 80m here are ki= ll the ADSL. Even at very low powers. If your ADSL is cut during your= transmissions only and resumes at the original speed directly afterwa= rds it may well be the router being temporarily being knocked out. If= however you line stays down for a period of time say several hours th= en it is not the router. What you are doing is putting noise (owing to= RF) onto your line which is being picked up at the exchange DSLAM. Th= e exchange equipment (DSLAM) serving your line will reduce data speed= to ensure that a connection of sorts is maintained. This speed can go= down to below 80kb/s from which it will not recover without technical= intervention by BT Open Reach. If it goes down to about 300/500kb/s= it may well recover it's original speed over a period of time BT quot= e 72 hours yes 72 hours (I think this time period is not a technical= issue but one to stall the punters off). On a good day the recovery= period can be speeded up by turning the router off and disconnecting= every thing from the line and waiting. This makes a quiet line for th= e automatic recovery to work.... on a good day!!! If you don't have en= ough life left to wait for BT to physically do some thing then the bes= t thing is to write to BT HQ in London to the their CEO (his name and= location can be found with a bit of research) and tell him what you= think of his outfit. I know from experience he does not like receivin= g this kind of letter. You may have your ISP as Joe Blogs Internet Pro= vider dot Com but in reality it is all provided by BT they own the fin= al mile and the exchange ...... legal niceties to one side it is a fac= t. If you get a good Broad Band data rate of say 4/= 8mb/s your transmissions on LF/MF will only slightly degrade your ADSL= but if like me on the end of 7.5km of copper its only 1/1.5mb/s on a= very good day, RF will wipe out your ADSL for a week or more. So with= out a lot of letter writing to BT and angry phone calls your ASDL will= not return to original speed.. To maintain a usable data rate on Broad Band her= e I can not use 136 or 500kc/s above a few Milli Watts at TX output ab= out 1 Watt on 160m 80 about 50Watts and on 60m and above 100Watts (pos= sibly more but not tested yet). Also the longer you stay on the worst= the speed degrades.My guess is with ADSL2 having a much wider bandwid= th the problem for Amateurs will extend further up the spectrum than= shown above. Hope you are not in my situation....... Oh and= don't believe all this Fibre stuff. Open Reach have told me that one= reason why Fibre is not being rolled out like the Virgin setup is tha= t there are only a few BT people capable of working with Fibre. This= is the reason why BT is Wedded to copper wire. So we locally have Int= ernet breakdowns owing to Junkies and the like ripping the Copper cabl= es out of BT ducting to pay for drugs... Bedfordshire has had Internet= disconnections for days owing to this phenomenon. So along with cable= theft and the lack of trained staff a proper interference free Broad= Band coverage using fibre in this country is looking particularly ble= ak. Good luck! 73 es GL petefmt I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community= Telco / ISP. --- On Thu, 25/11/10, Graham wrote: From: Graham Subject: LF: Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof= ? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 22:06 Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ? Just upgraded to ADSL2 with a orange net-g= ear router/wifi router, now 15 watts on 160 kills the conne= ction =20 router is in the same location as the old = edimax , which kept running with 200 watts on 500 K and 400 on= Hf=20 ? any RF proof ADSL2 on the market > Tnx - G..=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01CB8F38.B37B64A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone.
I think you will find that with your= line length=20 from the serving exchange  (7km)?  the S/N ratio will be poo= r, a=20 minimum of 10dB is required, my copper connection is about 2.7km which= is=20 considered to be approaching the limit, although the tests at the cust= omer NTE=20 showed that 3Mbt/s.should have been possible. At these line= lengths=20 any rf will swamp the DSL signal. I have discussed this problem= at length=20 several time with the people I worked with at Adastral Park ( commonly= known as=20 BT Labs), both DSL and EMC, the problem is compounded if a) you have= a long=20 length of overhead drop wire, b) the number and configuratio= n of=20 any internal extensions, and c) the position of the router with respec= t to the=20 incomming NTE (master socket). If the dropwire is long, the induced co= mmon mode=20 interference will be transformed into differential mode before it reac= hes the=20 router, any internal extension wiring will increase attenuation, espec= ially if=20 it is a 'star configuration.
The router should be as close as poss= ible to the=20 incoming NTE. A spectral analysis of my line revealed that there were= no DSL=20 carriers above 500kHz, hence not being able to use 500kHz, if the= router=20 shuts down because a corrupted incoming signal, it will start a 're-tr= aining'=20 sequence with the DSLAM in the serving exchange, however if either the= line or=20 the router is changed, the exchange equipment will then go though a pr= ocess of=20 determining the best possible data speed of the new configuration, thi= a can take=20 up to ten days, if during this time any of the speedtest sites are use= d=20 different data rates will be loged.
 
I changed my 1st generation BT= Homehub router=20 for an older BT Voyager 2500,  which improved the situation= with the=20 HF bands but not at 500kHz, even with high value common mode chokes on= =20 everything in sight. The problem was finally solved by changing over= to BT=20 Infinity Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC) with copper line length of 400m= giving data=20 speeds of 14Mbt/s.
 
I hope some of this is both of use an= d interest you=20 all.
 
73
Ken
M0KHW    <= /DIV>
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 M0FMT=
Sent: Friday, November 26, 20= 10 10:08=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Any ADSL2 BB= and router /=20 RF proof ?

Hi Again Graham and LF
 
Hmmmmm OK looks like you are in better shape than me. A= local=20 station who has difficulty with his ADSL has put Ferrite clamp= on=20 filters on all leads in and out of the Modem including the pow= er supply=20 lead. He claims (and I have no reason to doubt him) that this= has solved=20 his problems. The modem is the new BT Black Box one. I have on= e of those=20 although much more reliable and faster it still suffers from= my=20 description below. The issue I have appears not to be Modem re= lated but=20 exchange based.
 
I talk to Larry regularly on 4m so next time, if I rememb= er, I will=20 get the details of his solution Viz ferrite type and where on= the lines=20 he is fitting them and forward it to you. It may help.
As before good luck with your efforts; what ever success= you get=20 please publish it. Ken M0KHW Luton has an ADSL&nb= sp;problem=20 too so several people would be interested I am sure.

73= es GL=20 petefmt

I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com your community= Telco /=20 ISP.

--- On Fri, 26/11/10, Graham=20 <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

From:=20 Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LF:= Any ADSL2=20 BBand router / RF proof ?
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g
Date:=20 Friday, 26 November, 2010, 0:49

Ok Pete
 
This is the new  route= r , as=20 its  in the  same place as the old one , with (now= )=20 the  same  filters , the  PC is  linked= with=20 a  short network  cable , the  rest of the&nb= sp; pc's=20 are  linked by radio. its the  adsl  like tha= ts =20 failing
 
The edimax   rout= er was =20 quite  robust , never had a drop  out on HF and on= ly =20 over 200  watts  , feed , on 500  would stop&= nbsp;=20 the  link , this one  fails  with  25&nb= sp;=20 watts  on 160  .. the  router  is = off =20 most of the  day  and  night  , only&nbs= p;=20 on  with the  pc , the  new  router = ; is=20 faster  , from 6 (old)  meg to 9 med  down&nb= sp;=20 and  500k (old) to  890 k upload , but = if=20 it  keeps  dropping  out  with no = cure=20 then  its not  much  use for  my usage= =20
 
G,

Hi Graham
 
Are you sure the problem is the router?
 
136, 500, 160 and to some extent 80m= here are=20 kill the ADSL. Even at very low pow= ers. If=20 your ADSL is cut during your transmissions only= and=20 resumes at the original speed directly afterward= s it may=20 well be the router being temporarily being knock= ed out. If=20 however you line stays down for a period of time= say=20 several hours then it is not the router. What yo= u are=20 doing is putting noise (owing to RF) onto your= line which=20 is being picked up at the exchange DSLAM. The ex= change=20 equipment (DSLAM) serving your line will reduce= data speed=20 to ensure that a connection of sorts is maintain= ed. This=20 speed can go down to below 80kb/s from which it= will not=20 recover without technical intervention by BT Ope= n Reach.=20 If it goes down to about 300/500kb/s it may well= recover=20 it's original speed over a period of time BT quo= te 72=20 hours yes 72 hours (I think this time period is= not a=20 technical issue but one to stall the punters off= ). On a=20 good day the recovery period can be speeded up= by turning=20 the router off and disconnecting every thing fro= m the line=20 and waiting. This makes a quiet line for the aut= omatic=20 recovery to work.... on a good day!!! If you don= 't have=20 enough life left to wait for BT to physically do= some=20 thing then the best thing is to write to BT HQ= in London=20 to the their CEO (his name and location can be= found with=20 a bit of research) and tell him what you think= of his=20 outfit. I know from experience he does not like= receiving=20 this kind of letter. You may have your ISP as Jo= e Blogs=20 Internet Provider dot Com but in reality it= is all=20 provided by BT they own the final mile and the= exchange=20 ...... legal niceties to one side it is a fact.<= /DIV>
If you get a good Broad Band data= rate of=20 say 4/8mb/s your transmissions on LF/MF wil= l only=20 slightly degrade your ADSL but if like me on the= end of=20 7.5km of copper its only 1/1.5mb/s on a very goo= d day, RF=20 will wipe out your ADSL for a week or more.=20 So without a lot of letter writing to= BT and=20 angry phone calls your ASDL will not return to= original=20 speed..
 
To maintain a usable data rate on Broad Ban= d here I=20 can not use 136 or 500kc/s above a few Milli Wat= ts at TX=20 output about 1 Watt on 160m 80 about 50Watt= s and on=20 60m and above 100Watts (possibly more but= not tested=20 yet). Also the longer you stay on the worst the= speed=20 degrades.My guess is with ADSL2 having a much wi= der=20 bandwidth the problem for Amateurs will extend= further up=20 the spectrum than shown above.
 
Hope you are not in my situation....... Oh= and don't=20 believe all this Fibre stuff. Open Reach ha= ve told me=20 that one reason why Fibre is not being rolled ou= t like the=20 Virgin setup is that there are only a few BT peo= ple=20 capable of working with Fibre. This is the reaso= n=20 why BT is Wedded to copper wire. So we loca= lly have=20 Internet breakdowns owing to Junkies and the lik= e ripping=20 the Copper cables out of BT ducting to= pay for=20 drugs... Bedfordshire has had Internet disconnec= tions for=20 days owing to this phenomenon. So along with cab= le theft=20 and the lack of trained staff a proper inte= rference=20 free Broad Band coverage using fibre in thi= s country=20 is looking particularly bleak.
 
Good luck!

73 es GL=20 petefmt

I support www.NotSpotTelecom.Com= your=20 community Telco / ISP.

--- On Thu, 25/= 11/10,=20 Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>=20 wrote:

From:=20 Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
Subj= ect: LF:=20 Any ADSL2 BBand router / RF proof ?
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Thursday= , 25=20 November, 2010, 22:06

Any  ADS= L2  BBand=20 router / RF proof ?
 =
Just upgraded= to =20 ADSL2  with a  orange =20 net-gear   router/wifi  router,= =20 now   15  watts  on = 160 =20 kills  the  connection  =
 
router is in= the  same=20 location as  the old  edimax , which=  =20 kept running  with  200 watts = on 500=20 K  and  400 on Hf
 
? any &n= bsp;RF=20 proof  ADSL2  on the =20 market >
 
Tnx -=20 G.. 




<= BR>

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