Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mc01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mc01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.73]) by air-mb02.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMB024-a1924ca12d4c31e; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:48:28 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mc01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id EDF31380003E2; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1P0NP0-0008G4-QE for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:46:34 +0100 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1P0NOq-0008Fv-93 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:46:24 +0100 Received: from defout.telus.net ([204.209.205.55]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1P0NOl-0001WK-OF for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:46:25 +0100 Received: from edmwaa01.telusplanet.net ([75.157.170.89]) by priv-edmwes34.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.09.01.00 201-2219-108-20080618) with ESMTP id <20100927234106.CZJI1797.priv-edmwes34.telusplanet.net@edmwaa01.telusplanet.net> for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:41:06 -0600 Received: from [192.168.1.66] (d75-157-170-89.bchsia.telus.net [75.157.170.89]) by edmwaa01.telusplanet.net (BorderWare Security Platform) with ESMTP id EF313057ABBA1D62 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:41:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4CA12B91.1010102@telus.net> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:41:05 +0000 From: Scott Tilley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <4CA0FB40.5060404@telus.net> <4CA100C6.3080505@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <4CA116AA.5010905@telus.net> <4CA11E47.5020902@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> In-Reply-To: <4CA11E47.5020902@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=2hKK+VJEEj6V+VGXSl2NM9aVvA6xtybf5uKLn+7FEkA= c=1 sm=0 a=VlsvQeCHHzZYdozF1C9JGw==:17 a=aatUQebYAAAA:8 a=ZSGEaABH5wCE7eV3DgQA:9 a=lwJBFEZG369GlmssJdwA:7 a=Wmyb76Ya1bGzLxFTbFt0WgWqxNYA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=SuuJ6l9bSlsSpq7g:21 a=mWXDkwz6JwjOXUt8:21 a=hOPcFs9GYnCdblausQwA:9 a=OikOggAbDVDYxs0mW6oA:7 a=Bcugb4-JE7ICBl2prrKiegOI8MIA:4 a=rBKJJ2Jc0C4A:10 a=HpAAvcLHHh0Zw7uRqdWCyQ==:117 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD=1.426 Subject: Re: LF: Loops on TX Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080806040801020908070407" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60494ca12d4a306a X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --------------080806040801020908070407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stefan Please let me qualify a statement. There are times when ten second dot=20 length would be copible in JA. The norm is 60 second dots... 73 Scott On 9/27/2010 10:44 PM, Stefan Sch=E4fer wrote: > Scott, > > A very interesting mail! > > Am 28.09.2010 00:11, schrieb Scott Tilley: >> A loop made for a very nice compromise... > If you can work JA / 7200 km in QRSS-10 it is not a compromise but=20 > probably one of the best antennas available for amateurs in the moment. > >> As I have lots of convenient trees to support this so it is viable=20 >> here and will improve my RX situation as well... > > Scott, don't you want to give VLF a chance? If you have so much space=20 > (like i have too in the Heidelberg's forest, but not as close to my=20 > home QTH), you could try to build a (earth) loop of some 10000 m^2 and= =20 > could start a canadian VLF experiment!? I would watch out for your=20 > signal! :-) > > And what about a full size dipole for LF? 1000m is not the problem i=20 > assume? This may be an interesting alternative like you can see on my=20 > recent earth antenna tests. Here my antenna is not just working as a=20 > loop since the length comes near lambda. Maybe a dipole can give you=20 > an equal efficiency but can be built out of thinner wire and is easier= =20 > to fed with RF. > > What distance do i have to reach on LF with my earth electrode antenna= =20 > so that you will see it as an interesting alternative, hi :-) > > LF QRN comes down in the last days. Maybe i will do some changes on my= =20 > LF active antenna circuit tomorrow (filters). I assume i can get=20 > another 3 dB or so of efficiency. Then, i hope to receive your signal=20 > this winther. And you will see mine! ;-) > > 73, Stefan/DK7FC >> >> My experiments with verticals have come to an end at this QTH. Not=20 >> to say that in the future I will not experiment with them at other=20 >> QTHs but they simply don't suit this QTH. That's the secret in my=20 >> opinion of getting a decent signal out is finding an antenna that=20 >> maximizes the potential of a particular QTH not following a dogma=20 >> certain mal-contents seem to preach... >> >> 73 Scott >> VE7TIL >> http://www3.telus.net/sthed/argo/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 9/27/2010 8:38 PM, Stefan Sch=E4fer wrote: >>> LF, >>> >>> Am 27.09.2010 22:14, schrieb Scott Tilley: >>>> If someone knows the relationships for how a loop behaves over=20 >>>> ground I'd love to see them too! >>> >>> Can't this be done in EZNEC? >>> >>> Scott, this sound really impressive. I have thought your loop area=20 >>> is even higher. So, if i can find and climb some trees, i could try=20 >>> to test a closed loop as well. Sounds like an alternative, maybe. >>> >>> What about RG213 as the loop conductor, i mean the shielding? If the= =20 >>> supports are not spaced to much, like some trees, this could work.=20 >>> Starting with a small wire, carrying a bigger one and so on. Oh=20 >>> dear, so many ideas, help! >>> >>> 73, Stefan --------------080806040801020908070407 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Hi Stefan

Please let me qualify a statement.  There are times when ten second dot length would be copible in JA.  The norm is 60 second dots...

73 Scott


On 9/27/2010 10:44 PM, Stefan Schäfer wrote:
Scott,

A very interesting mail!

Am 28.09.2010 00:11, schrieb Scott Tilley:
A loop made for a very nice compromise...
If you can work JA / 7200 km in QRSS-10 it is not a compromise but probably one of the best antennas available for amateurs in the moment.

  As I have lots of convenient trees to support this so it is viable here and will improve my RX situation as well...

Scott, don't you want to give VLF a chance? If you have so much space (like i have too in the Heidelberg's forest, but not as close to my home QTH), you could try to build a (earth) loop of some 10000 m^2 and could start a canadian VLF experiment!? I would watch out for your signal! :-)

And what about a full size dipole for LF? 1000m is not the problem i assume? This may be an interesting alternative like you can see on my recent earth antenna tests. Here my antenna is not just working as a loop since the length comes near lambda. Maybe a dipole can give you an equal efficiency but can be built out of thinner wire and is easier to fed with RF.

What distance do i have to reach on LF with my earth electrode antenna so that you will see it as an interesting alternative, hi :-)

LF QRN comes down in the last days. Maybe i will do some changes on my LF active antenna circuit tomorrow (filters). I assume i can get another 3 dB or so of efficiency. Then, i hope to receive your signal this winther. And you will see mine! ;-)

73, Stefan/DK7FC

My experiments with verticals have come to an end at this QTH.  Not to say that in the future I will not experiment with them at other QTHs but they simply don't suit this QTH.  That's the secret in my opinion of getting a decent signal out is finding an antenna that maximizes the potential of a particular QTH not following a dogma certain mal-contents seem to preach...

73 Scott
VE7TIL
http://www3.telus.net/sthed/argo/











On 9/27/2010 8:38 PM, Stefan Schäfer wrote:
LF,

Am 27.09.2010 22:14, schrieb Scott Tilley:
If someone knows the relationships for how a loop behaves over ground I'd love to see them too!

Can't this be done in EZNEC?

Scott, this sound really impressive. I have thought your loop area is even higher. So, if i can find and climb some trees, i could try to test a closed loop as well. Sounds like an alternative, maybe.

What about RG213 as the loop conductor, i mean the shielding? If the supports are not spaced to much, like some trees, this could work. Starting with a small wire, carrying a bigger one and so on. Oh dear, so many ideas, help!

73, Stefan
--------------080806040801020908070407--