Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mc02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mc02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.74]) by air-me02.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINME024-8ba74c971b87a2; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 04:29:59 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mc02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 252363800009A; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 04:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OxbjJ-0008Az-5g for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:28:05 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Oxbj8-0008Aq-Lj for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:27:54 +0100 Received: from defout.telus.net ([204.209.205.55]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Oxbj7-0000tH-0z for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 09:27:55 +0100 Received: from edmwaa03.telusplanet.net ([75.157.170.89]) by priv-edmwes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.09.01.00 201-2219-108-20080618) with ESMTP id <20100920082745.GNHF12055.priv-edmwes51.telusplanet.net@edmwaa03.telusplanet.net> for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 02:27:45 -0600 Received: from [192.168.1.67] (d75-157-170-89.bchsia.telus.net [75.157.170.89]) by edmwaa03.telusplanet.net (BorderWare Security Platform) with ESMTP id 10E22246EFE1C564 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 02:27:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4C971B00.30705@telus.net> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 08:27:44 +0000 From: Scott Tilley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Kp8XkLsj+ETmpLKACjazEtTHT5jaYByuFOE5D7hc800= c=1 sm=0 a=aWgIXEMQ6CYA:10 a=VlsvQeCHHzZYdozF1C9JGw==:17 a=wV9FcBFsAAAA:8 a=QmpodSn3SebjlyKiv1wA:9 a=Zrahoy2TpnaXzNbEAHkA:7 a=PR2o-eLx1I_Sm5kAHdEyNLYhBy8A:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=T0DKcSz2giC_SVeT:21 a=QcC2mbrAfKk0KLBU:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=mdtXCHqJReD5nfLA2HMA:9 a=1hPA1rCy6ZNJi1geGt4A:7 a=phUquX9FSmrtsHTzHLDb9_FK5xcA:4 a=yzIjavHyBqlY_Vj-:21 a=4-BB_pGKhCh24foL:21 a=HpAAvcLHHh0Zw7uRqdWCyQ==:117 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD=1.426 Subject: Re: LF: RF and Combustion tests, and sparking, and TVI Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050401080309020407040702" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d604a4c971b854f62 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --------------050401080309020407040702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Andy In Canada, to obtain a field electrical safety approval for an 'unknown' polymeric or other non-metal enclosure the material must pass the following test: Using a paper match or butane cigarette lighter apply the flame directly to the material at its most vulnerable spot for 15 seconds then remove. If the material continues to burn after 5 seconds it is considered a fail, if it self extinguishes within the 5 seconds it is a pass. The above is good enough for insurance underwriters here and is codified in the CSA "SPE-1000 model code for the field evaluation of electrical equipment." I would suggest it be used in cases where fire is a concern for amateur purposes. Full product certification flame tests are far more rigorous but the above is considered acceptable for one of's and prototypes... 73 es GL Scott On 9/20/2010 8:08 AM, Andy Talbot wrote: > > I've carried out a few tests to see why the LF loading coil / ATU > housing caught alight and I'm now just about certain it was caused by > sparking from the aluminium foil used to seal the joins in the B+Q > Garden Store box and not RF being absorbed by teh plastic housing. > Combustion: > Placing pieces of the plastic housing in a gas flame, they caught > alight almost immediately and continued to self-sustain burn with a > yellow flame. The fumes given off were almost completel odourless so > I'm pretty sure the material is polycarbonate - which on a reasonable > assumption based on its name, contains only C, H and O, and explains > why it burns moderately well. I was rather surprised how quickly > the material caught alight, and then how slow but steady the resulting > flame was. > Incidently, I've tried burning clear polycarbonate roofing sheet in > the past, and it barely self-sustains - so I suspect the latter has a > fire retardant added. They're not going to bother with that on a > cheap garden storage shed.. > In a microwave cooker: > After several minutes of exposure, the material wasn't even warm. I > tried pieces of the black base material and the green plastic > housing, so it looks as if this material is not going to suffer any RF > absorbtion effects. > The 600 Watt beacon transmission had been going for about 30 minutes > (at 33% WSPR duty cycle) before I noticed anything, so it may well > have started burning right at the start to end up with the result > shown in those pictures. > An incident in the past lends weight to the sparking idea. Just > once, a few months ago, digital TV reception was suffering > intermittent interference and blocking and I realised the interference > was correlated with the transmission sessions of my 150 watt 503kHz > beacon signal. Checking in the ATU showed (smelled) nothing out of > the ordinary, and I put the interference down to "EMC Related issues" > perhaps along the mains. TV reception was OK the next day and ever > afterwards. On reflection, 500kHz signals have no real way of > affecting UHF, so I am wondering if minute sparking was going on just > occasionally, with the resulting harmonics enough to cause QRN at UHF > - with perhaps a session of dehanced propagation contributing. > Conclusions. > Cheap polycarbonate (probably) garden buildings from DIY centres are > suitable for RF housings PROVIDED there is no sparking / direct heat > exposure. > Don't even think of using metal tape without soldering or properly > bonding all joints - especially the sort not designed for electrical use. > Don't set light to garden sheds > Andy > www.g4jnt.com --------------050401080309020407040702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Andy

In Canada, to obtain a field electrical safety approval for an 'unknown' polymeric or other non-metal enclosure the material must pass the following test:

Using a paper match or butane cigarette lighter apply the flame directly to the material at its most vulnerable spot for 15 seconds then remove.  If the material continues to burn after 5 seconds it is considered a fail, if it self extinguishes within the 5 seconds it is a pass.

The above is good enough for insurance underwriters here and is codified in the CSA "SPE-1000 model code for the field evaluation of electrical equipment." I would suggest it be used in cases where fire is a concern for amateur purposes.

Full product certification flame tests are far more rigorous but the above is considered acceptable for one of's and prototypes...

73 es GL
Scott


On 9/20/2010 8:08 AM, Andy Talbot wrote:

I've carried out a few tests to see why the LF loading coil / ATU housing caught alight and I'm now just about certain it was caused by sparking from the aluminium foil used to seal the joins in the B+Q Garden Store box and not RF being absorbed by teh plastic housing.
 
Combustion:
Placing pieces of the plastic housing in a gas flame, they caught alight almost immediately and continued to self-sustain burn with a yellow flame.   The fumes given off were almost completel odourless so I'm pretty sure the material is polycarbonate - which on a reasonable assumption based on its name, contains only C, H and O, and explains why it burns moderately well.  I was rather surprised how quickly the material caught alight, and then how slow but steady the resulting flame was.
 
Incidently, I've tried burning clear polycarbonate roofing sheet in the past, and it barely self-sustains - so I suspect the latter has a fire retardant added.   They're not going to bother with that on a cheap garden storage shed..
 
In a microwave cooker:
After several minutes of exposure, the material wasn't even warm.  I tried pieces of the black base material  and the green plastic housing, so it looks as if this material is not going to suffer any RF absorbtion effects.
 
The 600 Watt beacon transmission  had been going for about 30 minutes (at 33% WSPR duty cycle) before I noticed anything, so it may well have started burning right at the start to end up with the result shown in those pictures.
 
An incident in the past lends weight to the sparking idea.   Just once, a few months ago, digital TV reception was suffering intermittent interference and blocking and I realised the interference was correlated with the transmission sessions of my 150 watt 503kHz beacon signal.  Checking in the ATU showed (smelled) nothing out of the ordinary, and I put the interference down to "EMC Related issues" perhaps along the mains.  TV reception was OK the next day and ever afterwards.   On reflection, 500kHz signals have no real way of affecting UHF, so I am wondering if minute sparking was going on just occasionally, with the resulting harmonics enough to cause QRN  at UHF - with perhaps a session of dehanced propagation contributing.
 
Conclusions.
Cheap polycarbonate (probably) garden buildings from DIY centres are suitable for RF housings PROVIDED there is no sparking / direct heat exposure.
Don't even think of using metal tape without soldering or properly bonding all joints - especially the sort not designed for electrical use.
Don't set light to garden sheds
 
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