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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 21:11:14 +0100
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From: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
DomainKey-Status: good (testing) 
Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: CMSK Beta released
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In this email trail W1TAG states that "WSPR is absolutely dismal on
137kHz".  Is this a widespread opinion or is it simply because
of a lack of stations using the mode when John was using it?

I'm expecting great things with WSPR on 137kHz in the coming months, so hope
I'm not going to be disappointed and hope many others will join me on WSPR
when not busy making CW QSOs.

73s
Roger G3XBM


On 5 August 2010 07:28, Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Murray Greenman <denwood@orcon.net.nz>
> Date: 5 August 2010 07:14
> Subject: CMSK Beta released
> To:
> Hi,
> there has been a lot of interest in the new software, and I'm sure my
> answers will be of interest to all. I've posted some of your comments below.
>
> First of all, the Beta version of the CMSK software and supporting web page
> has now been released:
>
> http://www.qsl.net/z/zl1bpu/CMSK/cmsk.htm
>
> Please pass this on to your friends. Andy, could you also post the link to
> the RSGB_LF_Group for me please.
>
> Jay, what you found is very likely a small bug. I recall Con commenting
> about something similar in an early version. I do know that if the RX shuts
> off before all the received text has flushed, it is likely to be flushed out
> with the first of the TX text, and so come out the wrong colour (exacerbated
> by tight Squelch setting). Perhaps you could send Con (zl2afp@xtra.co.nz)
> a screen-shot and explanation, as it might help narrow down the problem. I
> run it on Win XP SP2 with no sign of your problem.
>
> Yes, Con and I are of the opinion that MSK has the right credentials for LF
> and MF. You probably have more test opportunities than we do, and your
> assistance is appreciated. If you have any suggestions that might enhance
> the design or the performance of the protocol, we're listening.
>
> John,
> I'm pleased to hear that CMSK31 worked well for you. It's a bit slow of
> course, but if you're used to QRSS3, it's like lightning in comparison! The
> interleaver is has the same time spread as CMSK63, but because the frames
> are smaller the PN-sequence overhead is higher - thus its less than half the
> speed. The bandwidth is pretty good. I've had excellent 600m copy into VK2
> (2200km) with CMSK31 - and in fact it's often better than the 500km N-S path
> to ZL2. Signals seem particularly strong around sunset in VK2.
>
> Your suggestion of saving all the settings at the end of a session is a
> good one (are you listening, Con?). The RX centre and baud rate are easily
> set, but I agree, if you are operating the same frequency each day or
> perhaps waiting for someone to call on sked, it's nice to be prepared. The
> sampling rate should definitely be saved.
>
> I'm interested that you don't find WSPR too good on 137kHz. While it wasn't
> intended for LF when Joe and I conceived it, it would be interesting to know
> what you think is the cause. Just too much QRM?
>
> I've not managed a two-way QSO on LF or MF yet either, so you might beat me
> to it! I'm the only guy down here running an SSB exciter on LF/MF with
> digital capability at present. Con and I have had plenty of two-way QSOs on
> 80m, but that doesn't count!
>
> By the way, I'd be interested in comments on how much documentation we need
> to put in the public domain for the mode to be accepted in other countries.
> I've described the technique and posted the varicode, but I'm sure that's
> not enough to replicate our work, which would be desirable if we want an
> enduring interest in CMSK. I am encouraging Con to write a little morsel
> about the algorithms used etc, which I'll perhaps 'ghost write' and post on
> the web site. I also plan to write a technical article for publication some
> time soon, once we've knocked out the loose bolts, rattles and squeaks.
>
> We've only had access to 600m for a few months here, but I'm really
> impressed by how useful the band will be. We have grabbers in VK watching
> our every step, and there have been several un-scheduled 2-way QSOs, which
> is really heartening. There are at present 7 ZLs with 600m capability, and
> an 8th due any day.
>
> 73,
> Murray ZL1BPU/ZL1EE
>
> ======================================================================
> Jay W1VD:
> -----------
> John W1TAG forwarded a copy of the pre beta software as we work together on
> LF and MF wringing out
> new software and hardware.
>
> Found what may be an anomaly or (more likely) user error. Running Windows
> XP SP2 on Dell 4600 2.8
> GHz, 1g  ram using a Delta 44 sound card. This setup works fine on all
> other available digital modes
> software.
>
> When switched to transmit the main screen shows a number of characters (~ 3
> - 10) of the transmitted
> message in red,  then the text switches to green for a number of
> characters. Some of the characters
> make sense for hat is going on but others don't. No apparent rhyme or
> reason to the switching. I've
> verified that the program is transmitting the correct message and when on
> receive will decode
> correctly.
>
> It may be something I'm doing wrong - if so, there's no need to be gentle
> ...
>
> Thanks for your time and hard work developing the software. John and I have
> been convinced for some
> time that MSK is the way to go. We've tried just about every other 'digital
> com' software and we've
> determined MSK is the way to go. We normally judge software by 'static
> resistance' and 'fade
> recovery' on 137 and 500 kHz. Some previous examples of MSK from other
> folks have exhibited rather
> slow 'fade recovery'. Looking forward to running your FEC MSK. Sounds like
> it will be just the
> ticket.
>
> Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2
>
> John W1TAG:
> --------------
> Jay, W1VD, and I have had a couple of one-way opportunities for testing
> over a 317 kM path at 511 kHz, and I'm very encouraged.
>
> Last night, Jay ran 100 watts at the 31 baud rate, and copy was flawless
> here through static crashes and fading. We are going to try lower power
> tonight, and the 7.8 baud rate as well if weather permits. We're in an
> active thunderstorm season right now!
>
> This noon, I copied the same 100 watt signal over a surface-wave only
> path. The signal was barely audible, and would have made difficult CW
> copy. Again, the 31 baud copy was completely solid. Not much for static
> crashes or fades, just steady background noise.
>
> My only wishlist for receiving at this point would be to have more of
> the settings preserved -- sampling rate, baud rate and the rx center
> frequency, in particular. The sampling rate on this laptop is really
> off, and it takes a while to enter each time.
>
> Jay will have some wishes on the transmit side, but I'll let him speak
> for himself! We will do some more one-way playing this week, and can
> graduate to 2-way next week when I get home from holidays. I'm
> particularly curious to see how it does on 137 kHz with all of my
> neighborhood SMPSU garbage. WSPR has been absolutely dismal down there
> compared to 500 khz.
>
> Nice job, and we promise to keep exercising the program.
>
> John, W1TAG
>
>
>


-- 
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
G3XBM   GQRP 1678    ISWL G11088

--0016e6dab550fb93ee048d19263e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In this email trail W1TAG states that &quot;WSPR is absolutely dismal on=
 137kHz&quot;.=A0 Is this a widespread opinion or is it simply because <br=
>of a lack of stations using the mode when John was using it?=A0 <br><br>I=
&#39;m expecting great things with WSPR on 137kHz in the coming months, so=
 hope I&#39;m not going to be disappointed and hope many others will join=
 me on WSPR when not busy making CW QSOs.<br>
<br>73s<br>Roger G3XBM<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 5 August=
 2010 07:28, Andy Talbot <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy.g4jn=
t@googlemail.com">andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-le=
ft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br clear=3D"all"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From=
: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Murray Greenman</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:denwood@orcon.net.nz" target=3D"_blank">denwood@orcon.ne=
t.nz</a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: 5 August 2010 07:14<br>
Subject: CMSK Beta released<br>To: <br>Hi,<br>there has been a lot of inte=
rest in the new software, and I&#39;m sure my answers will be of interest=
 to all. I&#39;ve posted some of your comments below.<br><br>First of all,=
 the Beta version of the CMSK software and supporting web page has now bee=
n released:<br>

<br><a href=3D"http://www.qsl.net/z/zl1bpu/CMSK/cmsk.htm" target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.qsl.net/z/zl1bpu/CMSK/cmsk.htm</a><br><br>Please pass this on=
 to your friends. Andy, could you also post the link to the RSGB_LF_Group=
 for me please.<br>

<br>Jay, what you found is very likely a small bug. I recall Con commentin=
g about something similar in an early version. I do know that if the RX sh=
uts off before all the received text has flushed, it is likely to be flush=
ed out with the first of the TX text, and so come out the wrong colour (ex=
acerbated by tight Squelch setting). Perhaps you could send Con (<a href=
=3D"mailto:zl2afp@xtra.co.nz" target=3D"_blank">zl2afp@xtra.co.nz</a>) a=
 screen-shot and explanation, as it might help narrow down the problem. I=
 run it on Win XP SP2 with no sign of your problem.<br>

<br>Yes, Con and I are of the opinion that MSK has the right credentials=
 for LF and MF. You probably have more test opportunities than we do, and=
 your assistance is appreciated. If you have any suggestions that might en=
hance the design or the performance of the protocol, we&#39;re listening.<=
br>

<br>John,<br>I&#39;m pleased to hear that CMSK31 worked well for you. It&#=
39;s a bit slow of course, but if you&#39;re used to QRSS3, it&#39;s like=
 lightning in comparison! The interleaver is has the same time spread as=
 CMSK63, but because the frames are smaller the PN-sequence overhead is hi=
gher - thus its less than half the speed. The bandwidth is pretty good. I&=
#39;ve had excellent 600m copy into VK2 (2200km) with CMSK31 - and in fact=
 it&#39;s often better than the 500km N-S path to ZL2. Signals seem partic=
ularly strong around sunset in VK2.<br>

<br>Your suggestion of saving all the settings at the end of a session is=
 a good one (are you listening, Con?). The RX centre and baud rate are eas=
ily set, but I agree, if you are operating the same frequency each day or=
 perhaps waiting for someone to call on sked, it&#39;s nice to be prepared=
. The sampling rate should definitely be saved.<br>

<br>I&#39;m interested that you don&#39;t find WSPR too good on 137kHz. Wh=
ile it wasn&#39;t intended for LF when Joe and I conceived it, it would be=
 interesting to know what you think is the cause. Just too much QRM?<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve not managed a two-way QSO on LF or MF yet either, so you might be=
at me to it! I&#39;m the only guy down here running an SSB exciter on LF/M=
F with digital capability at present. Con and I have had plenty of two-way=
 QSOs on 80m, but that doesn&#39;t count!<br>

<br>By the way, I&#39;d be interested in comments on how much documentatio=
n we need to put in the public domain for the mode to be accepted in other=
 countries. I&#39;ve described the technique and posted the varicode, but=
 I&#39;m sure that&#39;s not enough to replicate our work, which would be=
 desirable if we want an enduring interest in CMSK. I am encouraging Con=
 to write a little morsel about the algorithms used etc, which I&#39;ll pe=
rhaps &#39;ghost write&#39; and post on the web site. I also plan to write=
 a technical article for publication some time soon, once we&#39;ve knocke=
d out the loose bolts, rattles and squeaks.<br>

<br>We&#39;ve only had access to 600m for a few months here, but I&#39;m=
 really impressed by how useful the band will be. We have grabbers in VK=
 watching our every step, and there have been several un-scheduled 2-way=
 QSOs, which is really heartening. There are at present 7 ZLs with 600m ca=
pability, and an 8th due any day.<br>

<br>73,<br>Murray ZL1BPU/ZL1EE<br><br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Jay W1VD:<br>-----------<br>John W1TAG=
 forwarded a copy of the pre beta software as we work together on LF and=
 MF wringing out<br>

new software and hardware.<br><br>Found what may be an anomaly or (more li=
kely) user error. Running Windows XP SP2 on Dell 4600 2.8<br>GHz, 1g =A0ra=
m using a Delta 44 sound card. This setup works fine on all other availabl=
e digital modes<br>

software.<br><br>When switched to transmit the main screen shows a number=
 of characters (~ 3 - 10) of the transmitted<br>message in red, =A0then th=
e text switches to green for a number of characters. Some of the character=
s<br>

make sense for hat is going on but others don&#39;t. No apparent rhyme or=
 reason to the switching. I&#39;ve<br>verified that the program is transmi=
tting the correct message and when on receive will decode<br>correctly.<br=
>

<br>It may be something I&#39;m doing wrong - if so, there&#39;s no need=
 to be gentle ...<br><br>Thanks for your time and hard work developing the=
 software. John and I have been convinced for some<br>time that MSK is the=
 way to go. We&#39;ve tried just about every other &#39;digital com&#39;=
 software and we&#39;ve<br>

determined MSK is the way to go. We normally judge software by &#39;static=
 resistance&#39; and &#39;fade<br>recovery&#39; on 137 and 500 kHz. Some=
 previous examples of MSK from other folks have exhibited rather<br>slow=
 &#39;fade recovery&#39;. Looking forward to running your FEC MSK. Sounds=
 like it will be just the<br>

ticket.<br><br>Jay W1VD =A0WD2XNS =A0WE2XGR/2<br><br>John W1TAG:<br>------=
--------<br>Jay, W1VD, and I have had a couple of one-way opportunities fo=
r testing<br>over a 317 kM path at 511 kHz, and I&#39;m very encouraged.<b=
r>
<br>
Last night, Jay ran 100 watts at the 31 baud rate, and copy was flawless<b=
r>here through static crashes and fading. We are going to try lower power<=
br>tonight, and the 7.8 baud rate as well if weather permits. We&#39;re in=
 an<br>

active thunderstorm season right now!<br><br>This noon, I copied the same=
 100 watt signal over a surface-wave only<br>path. The signal was barely=
 audible, and would have made difficult CW<br>copy. Again, the 31 baud cop=
y was completely solid. Not much for static<br>

crashes or fades, just steady background noise.<br><br>My only wishlist fo=
r receiving at this point would be to have more of<br>the settings preserv=
ed -- sampling rate, baud rate and the rx center<br>frequency, in particul=
ar. The sampling rate on this laptop is really<br>

off, and it takes a while to enter each time.<br><br>Jay will have some wi=
shes on the transmit side, but I&#39;ll let him speak<br>for himself! We=
 will do some more one-way playing this week, and can<br>graduate to 2-way=
 next week when I get home from holidays. I&#39;m<br>

particularly curious to see how it does on 137 kHz with all of my<br>neigh=
borhood SMPSU garbage. WSPR has been absolutely dismal down there<br>compa=
red to 500 khz.<br><br>Nice job, and we promise to keep exercising the pro=
gram.<br>

<br>John, W1TAG<br><br></div><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"http://g3xb=
m-qrp.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/</a><=
br><a href=3D"http://www.g3xbm.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://www.g3xbm.c=
o.uk</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.youtube.com/user/g3xbm</a><br>G3XBM=A0=A0 GQRP 1678=A0=A0=A0 ISWL G11088<=
br>

--0016e6dab550fb93ee048d19263e--