Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dj03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dj03.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.19.187.139]) by air-ma04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMA044-b5234c3de1b33d2; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:11:32 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dj03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 8A0B8380000B9; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OZ4TZ-00060j-Fn for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:06:25 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OZ4TZ-00060a-2N for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:06:25 +0100 Received: from cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([134.58.240.44]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OZ4TW-00041n-HK for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:06:25 +0100 Received: from smtps01.kuleuven.be (smtpshost01.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.74]) by cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D482758697 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:06:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ICTS-S-HUB-N4.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-hub-n4.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.9.14]) by smtps01.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E5631E703 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:06:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.11.13]) by ICTS-S-HUB-N4.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.9.14]) with mapi; Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:06:06 +0200 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:06:05 +0200 Thread-Topic: RE: DLF passive received with earth antenna Thread-Index: AcsjXNn7S+T1f8A7T6OQone6DMZIpQAECRV8 Message-ID: References: <4C363DCD.303@iup.uni-heidelberg.de>,<4C3650A1.6040104@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<4C3DA75D.80407@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> ,<263121BD51374246B3F184A43B2E9619@JimPC> In-Reply-To: <263121BD51374246B3F184A43B2E9619@JimPC> Accept-Language: nl-NL, nl-BE Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nl-NL, nl-BE MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: LF: RE: RE: DLF passive received with earth antenna Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039cdbc9d074c3de1ad6035 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Stefan, Jim, LF group, I agree with Jim that an earth antenna most likely will not act completely= as a loop antenna.=20 But as an engineer it doesn't matter to me too much, I am more interested= in the efficiency of the antenna rather than how it works exactly. To know the efficiency you would need to measure the power you can get out= af the antenna from the DLF signal. Knowing the ERP of DLF, the path attenuation and the antenna RX power you= can calculate the antenna "gain". To measure the antenna RX power properly you would have to cancel out any= reactive component of the antenna and terminate it properly. 73, Rik ON7YD ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com] Verzonden: woensdag 14 juli 2010 15:49 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: LF: RE: DLF passive received with earth antenna Dear Stefan, LF Group, The EMF induced in a small loop is: V =3D 2.1e-8 * fNAE f =3D frequency N =3D no. of turns A =3D area E =3D Electric field strength V/m (this assumes E/H =3D 377ohms, i.e. not= near field) This will be the voltage you measure, assuming negligible loading. As Rik says, the ratio of voltages at a given frequency will be equal to the rati= o of loop areas - this holds provided the loops are a small fraction of a wavelength in perimeter. With multi-turn loops, there may be errors caused by distributed capacitance, etc., but probably not a significant problem= at VLF. Depending on the ground resistance and so on, this "earth antenna" might also act as an E-field antenna, or combined E-field / H-field antenna, lik= e the K9AY and other "resistively terminated" loops. In this case, one would expect a different signal voltage at each end of the loop. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU