Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mg06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mg06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.206]) by air-md07.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMD071-8b8c4c1fab9521c; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:12:37 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mg06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0DF243800015A; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OQlTO-00073H-0J for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:11:54 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OQlTM-00072z-Ni for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:11:52 +0100 Received: from mail-bw0-f43.google.com ([209.85.214.43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OQlTK-0002TA-3X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:11:52 +0100 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1284914bwz.16 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:11:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=vFJ2XRHu9Uofm3wJImyyDAdBiLtnJg+GHU3cuZyATcw=; b=T3wo1K1ZrqSAhX5esqZU/NnttxF5uLTgkHX12nN8U1AtRboPmx75admPRaoXGmXEfV ubiMmJubt3vGtlVbsm6c8XvAhYbQo9PNmhwoGr2HpvJYLTtv9diaKPyVQr+vyc4tleMG g18CfOoObFX79AmYCXfrWk7FEgzV8REPERvE0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=C1f7NK8d/qI6WDCJg5WAKjU13QT5mubokIlq319csQqkE0ACaGqQEr4gD9Pb/hzms4 Xusyi4fTenxuqGAaa+H8rHaWiSC0jXp7AlmXndCmTRv8AsQBKqjZlrjQ+BHUs3upYHNb MmdxNXAtDGDfdd8/1c/CLhsIw2Rr1psifA06k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.85.70 with SMTP id n6mr3278036bkl.189.1277143908379; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.70.141 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <004801cb116c$6e98d100$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> References: <002401cb1076$f4620140$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <005b01cb109e$58400960$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <001501cb1155$38cbbe00$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> <2FE66D7AB59E43F3BDA1288BA86CC9D1@AGB> <004801cb116c$6e98d100$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:11:47 +0100 Message-ID: From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d977effc6d0504898e3c61 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d286.2 ; domain : googlemail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60ce4c1fab9312f0 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --0016e6d977effc6d0504898e3c61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That is a bandwidth thing. As CW is the widest mode used on LF, perhaps that's the one that should be restricted, while data modes go anywhere. Andy www.g4jnt.com On 21 June 2010 19:06, mal hamilton wrote: > Not RESRVED but a recommendation, on amateur radio bands CW is permitted > throughout the band wherea data modes and ssb are NOT > G3KEV > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Graham > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 5:17 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > Scotch Mist . no just the fog of progress ... besides, the frequency > slot is reserved for data only , > > So there is no possibility of qrm , unless the reference is to key > clicks ? > > *From:* mal hamilton > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 4:20 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > So this mode is invisible, in that case I and other CW operators will not > know it is there. No evasive action required to avoid QRM to it or the > reverse. > Wonderful news > What I saw and heard the other night was Scotch Mist > g3kev > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Graham > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 8:46 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > ''''for instance the French stn F5WK cannot hear you''''' > > Well , yes , that's the point of it all , no noise, no trace just > 100% pure digital data rolling over the land , like the un-seen fog > of progress > > IARU - R-1 plan .. 137.4 to 137.6 digital modes , with the note that CW > is 'not allowed' > > I think the test and the frequency went fully to 'to plan' and paves > the way for a magnitudinal increase in data use on 137 , to date limited > by bandwidth to psk31 , ros-mf by design occupying on 50% of the > allowable space on 137 and 99% of the 100Hz allocations for 500K. > and passing via a non linear system , how long will it before the > first live data qso over the pond ? > > G . > > > > *From:* mal hamilton > *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 6:30 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > Gary > There are too many variables with these experiments for instance the French > stn F5WK cannot hear you but you are S5 solid on 137.5 here at my qth > The RX stations antennas need to be analyised otherwise it misrepresents > what you are doing. > Can u pse use frequencies below 136.5 kcs otherwise there is a problem with > EU and Russian stations using the area 137 - 137.778 kcs for QRS acty. > also this is the DX window area for the USA and others. > 73 de mal/g3kev > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Gary - G4WGT > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:31 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > Hi Mal, > > Thank you for your report & comments. The mail you replied to gives all the > details of equipment in use for the test beacon. > > I would like to be able to have a QSO using morse but I have to admit to a > complete loss of confidence as I have not used the mode for 25 years which > was one year after I passed the test in 1984. Looking back, letting it go > was a silly thing to do. > > I do enjoy testing out these "weak signal" modes & in the report I received > from Michel F5WK last night he wrote that he could not hear the signal or > even see it on SpecLab but he got a complete decode. So as a weak signal > communication mode it works. > > Just to elaborate on the antenna, it is a 12 metre base loaded vertical > with a small elevated inductor of 500uH at about 9 metres & a 1 x 3 metre > capacity top with a 120uH spiral inductor. In my small garden I have no > space to go outwards only upwards. > > 73, > > Gary - G4WGT. > > On 20 June 2010 13:48, mal hamilton wrote: > >> Gary >> If that was you last nite on 137.5 kcs you were strong enough for cw or >> qrs3 no need to struggle with decodes from elswhere. >> also I had a qso with G3XIZ this morning on 137.0 kcs and got 599, he was >> 569. >> Not sure what antenna u were using but it was putting out a fair signal to >> this qth. Your radiators are probably acting as an antenna above earth. >> >> de mal/g3kev >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Gary - G4WGT >> *To:* LF Group (RSGB) >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 12:07 PM >> *Subject:* LF: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon >> >> >> Hi LF, >> >> Having successfully bench & on-air tested a x2 harmonic amplifier method >> of driving my G0MRF Class D LF transmitter, I ran a beacon last night >> (Saturday 19th) on 137.500 kHz. >> >> An extract from my previous e-mail description is shown at the end. >> >> Using the equipment & method described below, the ERP from my 12 metre >> vertical antenna was around 150mW. The mode was ROS MF-1, 100 Hz bandwidth. >> >> I received the following report from Michel, F5WK in JN18HP, a distance of >> 410 miles (661 kilometres) in daylight. >> >> >> Not even a faint trace on a QRSS3 spectrum but: >> >> >> RX1: 19:23 @ 5.9 Hz: 9 -37 dB >> >> RX1: 19:28 @ 5.4 Hz: O4WGT -34 dB >> >> RX1: 19:33 @ 5.4 Hz: G4WGT -31 dB >> >> The x2 harmonic low level amplifier is a simple way of driving a Class D >> type of transmitter which employs a divide by 2 drive chain. My limitation >> with multi tone drive is that my DDS VFO will only produce 2 frequencies ie. >> the main frequency & a CW/Rx offset which has previously limited me to 2 >> tones as with RTTY & DFCW modes. >> >> Please bear in mind that it will not be suitable for modes like PSK were >> tones are transmitted simultaneously. >> >> At the moment the 2 small PCB's are precariously lying on the desk, when I >> have cased them I will publish the circuit & pictures. >> >> 73 >> >> Gary - G4WGT. >> >> *********************************************** >> >> >> After a few days experimenting & bench testing a method of driving my >> G0MRF Class D Tx on the 137.000 kHz band from my linear transverter I >> finally >> constructed a harmonic amplifier producing a 274.000 kHz signal from >> 137.000 >> kHz input. An "on-air" trial was conducted resulting in a QSO with >> Graham G0NBD on 137.000 kHz using ROS data mode software. >> >> My thanks to Graham for his ideas & tests. >> >> The mode used was ROS MF-7. The equipment used for the QSO was as >> follows. Kenwood TS-440 to my LF-MF linear transverter producing the >> 137.000 kHz signal, followed by a tuned harmonic circuit & buffer >> amplifier whose output was 274.000 kHz therefore at x2 drive for the >> Class >> D Tx. The x2 signal is then divided by the Tx driver chain in the >> normal way to provide 137.000 kHz to the PA. >> >> This method should also work well using WSPR & other similar modes. >> >> >> ********************************************* >> >> > > > > > --0016e6d977effc6d0504898e3c61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That is a bandwidth thing.
As CW is the widest mode used on LF, perhaps that's the one that= should be restricted, while data modes go anywhere.
=A0
On 21 June 2010 19:06, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.ne= t> wrote:
Not=A0RESRVED but a recommendation,= =A0 on amateur radio bands CW is permitted throughout the band wherea data= modes and ssb are NOT
G3KEV
=A0
----- Original Message -----
From: Graham
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 5:17 PM=
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz RO= S beacon

Scotch Mist=A0 . no=A0 just the=A0 fo= g=A0 of progress ... besides, the=A0 frequency=A0 slot=A0 is=A0 reserved= =A0 for=A0 data=A0 only=A0 ,
=A0
So=A0 there=A0 is no=A0 possibility= of qrm , unless=A0 the=A0 reference is to key clicks ?

Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon

So this mode is invisible, in that ca= se I and other CW operators will not know it is there. No evasive action= required to avoid QRM to it or=A0the reverse.
Wonderful news
What I saw and heard the other night= was Scotch Mist
g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
From: Graham
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 8:46 PM=
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz RO= S beacon

''''for instance the= French stn F5WK=A0cannot hear you'''''
=A0
Well=A0 , yes , that's the=A0 poi= nt=A0 of it=A0 all=A0 , no=A0 noise, no=A0 trace just=A0 100% pure=A0 digi= tal=A0 data rolling over the=A0 land , like the=A0 un-seen=A0 fog=A0 of=A0= progress=A0
=A0
IARU - R-1 plan .. 137.4 to 137.6=A0= digital modes , with the note that=A0 CW is 'not allowed'=A0
=A0
I think the=A0 test and=A0 the=A0 fre= quency=A0 went fully=A0 to =A0'to plan' and paves the way=A0 for= a magnitudinal=A0 increase in=A0 data=A0 use on 137 , to date limited by= bandwidth =A0to=A0 psk31 , ros-mf=A0 by=A0 design=A0 occupying on 50%=A0= of the=A0 allowable=A0 space on=A0 137=A0 and 99% of the=A0 100Hz=A0 allo= cations=A0 for=A0 500K. and=A0 passing via=A0 a=A0 non linear=A0 system ,= how=A0 long will=A0 it before the=A0 first=A0 live=A0 data=A0 qso=A0 over= the=A0 pond ?
=A0
G .
=A0
=A0

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon

Gary
There are too many variables with the= se experiments for instance the French stn F5WK=A0cannot hear you but you= are S5 solid on=A0137.5=A0here at my qth
The RX stations antennas need to be= analyised otherwise it misrepresents what you are doing.
Can u pse use frequencies below 136.5= kcs otherwise there is a problem with EU and Russian stations using the= area 137 - 137.778 kcs for QRS acty.
also this is the DX window area for= the USA and others.
73 de mal/g3kev
=A0
=A0
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:31 PM=
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz RO= S beacon

Hi Mal,=20

Thank you for your report & comments. The mail you replied to giv= es all the details of equipment in use for the test beacon.

I would like to be able to have a QSO using morse but I have to admit= to a complete loss of confidence as I have not used the mode for 25 years= which was one year after I passed the test in 1984. Looking back, letting= it go was a silly thing to do.

I do enjoy testing out these "weak signal" modes & in= the report I received from Michel F5WK last night he wrote that he could= not hear the signal or even see it on SpecLab but he got a complete decod= e. So as a weak signal communication mode it works.

Just to elaborate on the antenna, it is a 12 metre base loaded vertic= al with a small elevated inductor of 500uH at about 9 metres & a 1 x= 3 metre capacity top with a 120uH spiral inductor. In my small garden I= have no space to go outwards only upwards.

73,

Gary - G4WGT.

On 20 June 2010 13:48, mal hamilton <g3= kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote:
Gary
If that was you last nite on=A0 137.5= kcs you were strong enough for cw or qrs3=A0no need to struggle with deco= des from elswhere.
also I had a qso with G3XIZ this morn= ing on 137.0 kcs and got 599, he was 569.
Not sure what antenna u were using=A0= but it was putting out a fair signal to this qth. Your radiators are proba= bly acting as an antenna above earth.
=A0
de mal/g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 12:07= PM
Subject: LF: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon=

    Hi LF,
Having successfully bench & on-air tested a x2 harmonic amplifier= method of driving my G0MRF Class D LF transmitter, I ran a beacon last ni= ght (Saturday 19th) on 137.500 kHz.

An extract from my previous e-mail description is shown at the end.

Using the equipment & method described below, the ERP from my 12= metre vertical antenna was around 150mW. The mode was ROS MF-1, 100 Hz ba= ndwidth.

I received the following report from Michel, F5WK in JN18HP, a distan= ce of 410 miles (661 kilometres) in daylight.

>> Not even a faint trace on a QRSS3 spectrum but:

>&= gt; RX1: 19:23 @ 5.9 Hz: 9 <STOP> -37 dB
>> RX1: 19:28 @ 5.= 4 Hz: O4WGT <STOP> -34 dB
>> RX1: 19:33 @ 5.4 Hz: G4WGT <= ;STOP> -31 dB

The x2 harmonic low level amplifier is a simple way of driving a Clas= s D type of transmitter which employs a divide by 2 drive chain. My limita= tion with multi tone drive is that my DDS VFO will only produce 2 frequenc= ies ie. the main frequency & a CW/Rx offset which has previously limit= ed me to 2 tones as with RTTY & DFCW modes.

Please bear in mind that it will not be suitable for modes like PSK= were tones are transmitted simultaneously.

At the moment the 2 small PCB's are precariously lying on the des= k, when I have cased them I will publish the circuit & pictures.

73

Gary - G4WGT.
    ***********************************************
    After a few days experimenting & bench testing a method of driving= my
    G0MRF Class D Tx on the 137.000 kHz band from my linear transverter= I finally
    constructed a harmonic amplifier producing a 274.000 kHz sig= nal from 137.000
    kHz input. An "on-air" trial was conducted resulting in a QSO wi= th
    Graham G0NBD on 137.000 kHz using ROS data mode software.
    =A0
    = My thanks to Graham for his ideas & tests.
    =A0
    The mode used was= ROS MF-7. The equipment used for the QSO was as
    follows. Kenwood TS-440 to my LF-MF linear transverter producing the
    13= 7.000 kHz signal, followed by a tuned harmonic circuit & buffer
    amp= lifier whose output was 274.000 kHz therefore at x2 drive for the Class D Tx. The x2 signal is then divided by the Tx driver chain in the
    norma= l way to provide 137.000 kHz to the PA.
    =A0
    This method should also= work well using WSPR & other similar modes.
    *********************************************
=




<= br>

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