Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mg05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mg05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.205]) by air-md01.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMD014-8b774c0d569d13f; Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:29:17 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mg05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 08443380006B0; Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OLivE-0007Ve-WD for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:27:48 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OLivE-0007VV-5I for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:27:48 +0100 Received: from mail-bw0-f43.google.com ([209.85.214.43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OLivC-0004r6-0L for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:27:48 +0100 Received: by bwz3 with SMTP id 3so1155714bwz.16 for ; Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:27:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=5nbmvImkf/4MgSS+Vv3shXYczcECOTmkX2iqpEufauQ=; b=UqlY3Dw3ibVMUzC4tQSpIYUZx0LBLIeW7L71G9BtazDHjmHoZwhRaQ++Butvm8MlBl 8z8RE0qYIXA3a/sQymO+1gdakw5fziitMqldztwmuTGtTte6W5mBg6DrKMxhJIN7jBC1 G/sMayDZMjPDem5nIq0ALeyUQs9iL/Kn/nV5w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=kUzp3qrMMLkkSz+PUUZ/uuFQwpb5bUamZVrvTpSg7gjUDxkFM5N+mI7ik0n7LPf1Cy 1zARaQGRC0E0vrog9QfZzRE9b8iFuF5y9XRZTibg6mtizM0QnGEhhzJXda/SgJYXA3ZM XK1P5a/JjkJY8fC6LHrBXJQCiQ2k4YN9/MTvg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.83.101 with SMTP id e37mr7080952bkl.48.1275942464837; Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.58.204 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jun 2010 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <657E7065AC4C454AB63F6C7C2FF043F6@Black> <003101cb04c2$0913cc10$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <1607287044.1492139.1275754813942.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb034> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C24@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> <7.0.1.0.1.20100606111158.018277a8@magma.ca> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C28@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> <002001cb066b$9d0ddd70$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 21:27:44 +0100 Message-ID: From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,WHY_WAIT=0.412 Subject: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d9a29c5ed8870488768186 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,WHY_WAIT autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m223.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60cd4c0d569b7938 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --0016e6d9a29c5ed8870488768186 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Mal, People like to experiment, to try the impossible using all means at their disposal. Not many of us have the opportunity, or indeed the wish, to run many kWs and these days most don't have the space for large antennas. So,= we choose to try new and innovative techniques to overcome our limitations. Some of us will succeed and feel proud of our efforts. Others will fail,= but will have learnt a lot on the way. As some wise soul said, "the journey is more important than the destination". It is better to try that to sit back and continually moan. 73s Roger G3XBM On 7 June 2010 20:09, Rik Strobbe wrote: > brute force versus brains ? > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > ________________________________________ > Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens mal hamilton [ > g3kevmal@talktalk.net] > Verzonden: maandag 7 juni 2010 20:02 > Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Onderwerp: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? > > The Dreamers band is now becoming more a Nightmare band > A simple VLF experiment to exchange reports amongst radio amateurs requi= res > a Phd with the ability to manage a frequency stabity of > 0.000000000000000000001 cycles otherwise you could be missed also a spee= d > of > QRS 203573 taking several months or even years to send a DOT. > Summer vacation taken up winding a large coil to resonate antenna. The > whole > thing is not real. > For a Radio Operator the task is difficult for an Appliance Operator > impossible > My approach is to generate K/watts of rf at the tx end and have a > suitable > array of wire antennas at the rx end. Communications would be by normal= CW > where frequency accuracy is not critical. > Why wait around for months or years for a DOT to be heard when this can= be > done on other bands like 137 or 500 kcs and HF. > Commercial operators have already exploited these frequencies and radio > amateurs are re inventing the wheel > g3kev > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:47 PM > Subject: AW: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? > > > Hi Joe, > > I don't know that RX but what i recommend is using the soundcard of your= PC > (or an external) as the RX, just as Paul Nicholson and Jim and Wolf and > Markus and Renato and...... did it. You do not need an extra RX. An extr= a > usual RX is just a source of frequency instabilities (offset and > temperature > drift). You have to have a very stable frequency, say 8970,00 Hz +- 0,01 > Hz. > This can be reached by using your soundcard and e.g. DL4YHFs Spectrum > Lab(V2.75 b08 or higher versions) and compensating the frequency drift= by > locking to a military reference MSK signal that is available almost all > over > the world. > Then, in a first step you can watch the ALPHAs on 11904,762 Hz and watch > your accuracy. It should be an absolutely horizontal line! > Theoretically, this could be tried this evening :-) > > Best 73 and good luck :-) > > Stefan/DK7FC > > ________________________________ > > Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von jcraig@mun.ca > Gesendet: So 06.06.2010 20:38 > An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Betreff: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US? > > > > Hi Bill, Group. > > Just returned from a one week trip inland (Ottawa). Yes, I'm near St > John's and have acquired an ITT mackay 3031A which might be satisfactory > for VLF RX. Any comments on the suitability of this RX would be > appreciated. > > 73 & TNX > Joe VO1NA > > On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Bill de Carle wrote: > > > At 07:45 AM 6/6/2010, Stefan/DK7FC wrote: > > [..] > >> What about the canadian stations? These are in the shortest distance= to > EU > >> and will become a very important factor in some months when the QRN > levels > >> decrease. Are there already stations who permantently monitor the > dreamers > >> band (not the whole VLF) with a suitable RX system? Means, not only > copying > >> the ALPHAs by ear but having a SLOW QRSS/DFCW window where DFCW-600= or > >> DFCW-6000 can be displayed. Here, it makes no sense to monitor the > ALPHAs > >> and 8,97 kHz in e.g. 4 Hz FFT bandwith, what we need is 4 mHz! So, th= at > one > >> DFCW element takes 10 minutes. Another important step is to have a > STABLE > >> soundcard sample rate. This is well performed in the latest SpecLab > >> version. Alternatively a GPS synchronisation or so is necessray! > > [..] > >> What do the canadians or US stns think about that? Any REAL interest? > > > > I have the necessary frequency stability/accuracy either already in pl= ace > or > > easily arranged and I'm certainly interested, but unfortunately I live > inland > > about 1000 miles from the East coast of Canada (the best Rx location > would > be > > somewhere around St. Johns Newfoundland). Nevertheless, I'll see if= I > can > > receive the Alpha signals for a start. I've been monitoring your > experiments > > and you guys have me all excited about this VLF stuff! > > > > 73, > > Bill VE2IQ > > > > > > > --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 --0016e6d9a29c5ed8870488768186 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Mal,

People like to experiment, to try the impossible using al= l means at their disposal. Not many of us have the opportunity, or indeed= the wish, to run many kWs and these days most don't have the space fo= r large antennas. So, we choose to try new and innovative techniques to ov= ercome our limitations. Some of us will succeed and feel proud of our effo= rts. Others will fail, but will have learnt a lot on the way.

As some wise soul said, "the journey is more important than the= destination".=A0 It is better to try that to sit back and continuall= y moan.

73s
Roger G3XBM


On= 7 June 2010 20:09, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrot= e:
brute force ver= sus brains ?

73, Rik =A0ON7YD - OR7T

________________________________________
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens mal hamilton [g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Verzonden: maandag 7 juni 2010 20:02
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org
Onderwerp: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?

The Dreamers band is now becoming more a Nightmare band
A simple VLF experiment to exchange reports amongst radio amateurs require= s
a Phd with the ability to manage a frequency stabity of
0.000000000000000000001 cycles otherwise you could be missed also a speed= of
QRS =A0203573 taking several months or even years to send a DOT.
Summer vacation taken up winding a large coil to resonate antenna. The who= le
thing is not real.
For a Radio Operator the task is difficult for an Appliance Operator
impossible
My approach is to generate K/watts of rf at the tx end and =A0have a =A0su= itable
array of wire antennas at the rx end. Communications would be by normal CW=
where frequency accuracy is not critical.
Why wait around for months or years for a DOT to be heard when this can be=
done on other bands like 137 or 500 kcs and HF.
Commercial operators have already exploited these frequencies and radio amateurs are re inventing the wheel
g3kev


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer" <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blac= ksheep.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: AW: VLF: RX stations in= Canada and US?


Hi Joe,

I don't know that RX but what i recommend is using the soundcard of yo= ur PC
(or an external) as the RX, just as Paul Nicholson and Jim and Wolf and Markus and Renato and...... did it. You do not need an extra RX. An extra<= br> usual RX is just a source of frequency instabilities (offset and temperatu= re
drift). You have to have a very stable frequency, say 8970,00 Hz +- 0,01= Hz.
This can be reached by using your soundcard and e.g. DL4YHFs Spectrum
Lab(V2.75 b08 or higher versions) and compensating the frequency drift by<= br> locking to a military reference MSK signal that is available almost all ov= er
the world.
Then, in a first step you can watch the ALPHAs on 11904,762 Hz and watch your accuracy. It should be an absolutely horizontal line!
Theoretically, this could be tried this evening :-)

Best 73 and good luck :-)

Stefan/DK7FC

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von jc= raig@mun.ca
Gesendet: So 06.06.2010 20:38
An: rsgb_lf_group@blackshe= ep.org
Betreff: Re: VLF: RX stations in Canada and US?



Hi Bill, Group.

Just returned from a one week trip inland (Ottawa). =A0Yes, I'm near= St
John's and have acquired an ITT mackay 3031A which might be satisfacto= ry
for VLF RX. Any comments on the suitability of this RX would be
appreciated.

73 & TNX
Joe VO1NA

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Bill de Carle wrote:

> At 07:45 AM 6/6/2010, Stefan/DK7FC wrote:
> [..]
>> What about the canadian stations? These are in the shortest dista= nce to
EU
>> and will become a very important factor in some months when the= QRN
levels
>> decrease. Are there already stations who permantently monitor the=
dreamers
>> band (not the whole VLF) with a suitable RX system? Means, not on= ly
copying
>> the ALPHAs by ear but having a SLOW QRSS/DFCW window where DFCW-6= 00 or
>> DFCW-6000 can be displayed. Here, it makes no sense to monitor th= e ALPHAs
>> and 8,97 kHz in e.g. 4 Hz FFT bandwith, what we need is 4 mHz! So= , that
one
>> DFCW element takes 10 minutes. Another important step is to have= a STABLE
>> soundcard sample rate. This is well performed in the latest SpecL= ab
>> version. Alternatively a GPS synchronisation =A0or so is necessra= y!
> [..]
>> What do the canadians or US stns think about that? Any REAL inter= est?
>
> I have the necessary frequency stability/accuracy either already in= place
or
> easily arranged and I'm certainly interested, but unfortunately= I live
inland
> about 1000 miles from the East coast of Canada (the best Rx location= would
be
> somewhere around St. Johns Newfoundland). =A0Nevertheless, I'll= see if I can
> receive the Alpha signals for a start. =A0I've been monitoring yo= ur
experiments
> and you guys have me all excited about this VLF stuff!
>
> 73,
> Bill VE2IQ
>
>
>



--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088
--0016e6d9a29c5ed8870488768186--