Return-Path: Received: from mtain-de09.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-de09.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.209]) by air-di04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDI042-eac34c1e7dae323; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:44:30 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-de09.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 47C523800008D; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OQRL5-0005kT-UC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:41:59 +0100 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OQRKx-0005ej-DL for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:41:51 +0100 Received: from mail-bw0-f43.google.com ([209.85.214.43]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OQRKu-0007Wl-TD for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:41:51 +0100 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so887525bwz.16 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:41:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=cCyyqskKnw1kVkJE5d+24yxo+V2iEE0rRmeB3zd4bOg=; b=b+MnlCeShm7D/WZJTOH1V+zfaOe7xKvPdClwz8dmi2w+61mcn4yhEix7B/pmDovEw4 SrEUKai0iOMjojO/0kjhF+6PS4ImgfAACe5Pus2XC9hk306dcBji6fzVDn5p4RR2Pxzj JAXwkExlaHxItxUL7/2Gua9n9OK9RHIVO7syo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=QE2OVN0QeNgRxy7J4ai52cPM2kr8wH5tCK43vVQyovukWFMpe4yEqS8QM4KDpT1TC7 dBKv1mN+yDXgwVO+9WVdGOOJecefFEKRHY2cF5IsqKMfqhzENc/cAwdqebQHIXPvviJq XIJiNQaPXSvqOari8PFR21C/CpcoKwcwPctx4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.130 with SMTP id l2mr2177630bkd.164.1277066508090; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.100.69 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:41:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <002401cb1076$f4620140$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <005b01cb109e$58400960$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:41:48 +0100 Message-ID: From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555a7b691bfa704897c37d2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m248.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40d14c1e7daa39ca X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --00032555a7b691bfa704897c37d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Graham, I'm behind on ROS progress so have a few questions please, if you've time: 1. How does ROS compare on a weak signal "effectiveness" factor with modes like QRSS3, 10 etc and with WSPR? Is there a "dB better than" estimate for ROS in its various forms? 2. What sort of bandwidths does ROS occupy on these LF tests? I appreciate it is spread spectrum, so there's not much power at any time on any frequency. 3. What sort of TX PA is needed - linear or non-linear? 4. Is the software less clunky than when I looked a few months back? 5. Is it going to be a serious contender for real QRP buffs like me? 73s Roger G3XBM On 20 June 2010 20:46, Graham wrote: > ''''for instance the French stn F5WK cannot hear you''''' > > Well , yes , that's the point of it all , no noise, no trace just > 100% pure digital data rolling over the land , like the un-seen fog > of progress > > IARU - R-1 plan .. 137.4 to 137.6 digital modes , with the note that CW > is 'not allowed' > > I think the test and the frequency went fully to 'to plan' and paves > the way for a magnitudinal increase in data use on 137 , to date limited > by bandwidth to psk31 , ros-mf by design occupying on 50% of the > allowable space on 137 and 99% of the 100Hz allocations for 500K. > and passing via a non linear system , how long will it before the > first live data qso over the pond ? > > G . > > > > *From:* mal hamilton > *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 6:30 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > Gary > There are too many variables with these experiments for instance the French > stn F5WK cannot hear you but you are S5 solid on 137.5 here at my qth > The RX stations antennas need to be analyised otherwise it misrepresents > what you are doing. > Can u pse use frequencies below 136.5 kcs otherwise there is a problem with > EU and Russian stations using the area 137 - 137.778 kcs for QRS acty. > also this is the DX window area for the USA and others. > 73 de mal/g3kev > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Gary - G4WGT > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:31 PM > *Subject:* Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon > > Hi Mal, > > Thank you for your report & comments. The mail you replied to gives all the > details of equipment in use for the test beacon. > > I would like to be able to have a QSO using morse but I have to admit to a > complete loss of confidence as I have not used the mode for 25 years which > was one year after I passed the test in 1984. Looking back, letting it go > was a silly thing to do. > > I do enjoy testing out these "weak signal" modes & in the report I received > from Michel F5WK last night he wrote that he could not hear the signal or > even see it on SpecLab but he got a complete decode. So as a weak signal > communication mode it works. > > Just to elaborate on the antenna, it is a 12 metre base loaded vertical > with a small elevated inductor of 500uH at about 9 metres & a 1 x 3 metre > capacity top with a 120uH spiral inductor. In my small garden I have no > space to go outwards only upwards. > > 73, > > Gary - G4WGT. > > On 20 June 2010 13:48, mal hamilton wrote: > >> Gary >> If that was you last nite on 137.5 kcs you were strong enough for cw or >> qrs3 no need to struggle with decodes from elswhere. >> also I had a qso with G3XIZ this morning on 137.0 kcs and got 599, he was >> 569. >> Not sure what antenna u were using but it was putting out a fair signal to >> this qth. Your radiators are probably acting as an antenna above earth. >> >> de mal/g3kev >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Gary - G4WGT >> *To:* LF Group (RSGB) >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 20, 2010 12:07 PM >> *Subject:* LF: 137.500 kHz ROS beacon >> >> >> Hi LF, >> >> Having successfully bench & on-air tested a x2 harmonic amplifier method >> of driving my G0MRF Class D LF transmitter, I ran a beacon last night >> (Saturday 19th) on 137.500 kHz. >> >> An extract from my previous e-mail description is shown at the end. >> >> Using the equipment & method described below, the ERP from my 12 metre >> vertical antenna was around 150mW. The mode was ROS MF-1, 100 Hz bandwidth. >> >> I received the following report from Michel, F5WK in JN18HP, a distance of >> 410 miles (661 kilometres) in daylight. >> >> >> Not even a faint trace on a QRSS3 spectrum but: >> >> >> RX1: 19:23 @ 5.9 Hz: 9 -37 dB >> >> RX1: 19:28 @ 5.4 Hz: O4WGT -34 dB >> >> RX1: 19:33 @ 5.4 Hz: G4WGT -31 dB >> >> The x2 harmonic low level amplifier is a simple way of driving a Class D >> type of transmitter which employs a divide by 2 drive chain. My limitation >> with multi tone drive is that my DDS VFO will only produce 2 frequencies ie. >> the main frequency & a CW/Rx offset which has previously limited me to 2 >> tones as with RTTY & DFCW modes. >> >> Please bear in mind that it will not be suitable for modes like PSK were >> tones are transmitted simultaneously. >> >> At the moment the 2 small PCB's are precariously lying on the desk, when I >> have cased them I will publish the circuit & pictures. >> >> 73 >> >> Gary - G4WGT. >> >> *********************************************** >> >> >> After a few days experimenting & bench testing a method of driving my >> G0MRF Class D Tx on the 137.000 kHz band from my linear transverter I >> finally >> constructed a harmonic amplifier producing a 274.000 kHz signal from >> 137.000 >> kHz input. An "on-air" trial was conducted resulting in a QSO with >> Graham G0NBD on 137.000 kHz using ROS data mode software. >> >> My thanks to Graham for his ideas & tests. >> >> The mode used was ROS MF-7. The equipment used for the QSO was as >> follows. Kenwood TS-440 to my LF-MF linear transverter producing the >> 137.000 kHz signal, followed by a tuned harmonic circuit & buffer >> amplifier whose output was 274.000 kHz therefore at x2 drive for the >> Class >> D Tx. The x2 signal is then divided by the Tx driver chain in the >> normal way to provide 137.000 kHz to the PA. >> >> This method should also work well using WSPR & other similar modes. >> >> >> ********************************************* >> >> > > > -- http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 --00032555a7b691bfa704897c37d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Graham,

I'm behind on ROS progress so have a few questions plea= se, if you've time:
  1. How does ROS compare on a weak signal= "effectiveness" factor with modes like QRSS3, 10 etc and with= WSPR? Is there a "dB better than" estimate for ROS in its vario= us forms?
  2. What sort of bandwidths does ROS occupy on these LF tests? I appr= eciate it is spread spectrum, so there's not much power at any time on= any frequency.
  3. What sort of TX PA is needed - linear or non-l= inear?
  4. Is the software less clunky than when I looked a few months back?
    5. =
  5. Is it going to be a serious contender for real QRP buffs like me?
    <= /li>
73s
Roger G3XBM

On 20 June= 2010 20:46, Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
''''for instance the= French stn F5WK=A0cannot=20 hear you'''''
=A0
Well=A0 , yes , that's the=A0 poi= nt=A0 of=20 it=A0 all=A0 , no=A0 noise, no=A0 trace just=A0 100% pure=A0=20 digital=A0 data rolling over the=A0 land , like the=A0 un-seen=A0=20 fog=A0 of=A0 progress=A0
=A0
IARU - R-1 plan .. 137.4 to 137.6=A0= digital=20 modes , with the note that=A0 CW is 'not allowed'=A0
=A0
I think the=A0 test and=A0 the=A0=20 frequency=A0 went fully=A0 to =A0'to plan' and paves the way=A0 fo= r=20 a magnitudinal=A0 increase in=A0 data=A0 use on 137 , to date limited=20 by bandwidth =A0to=A0 psk31 , ros-mf=A0 by=A0 design=A0 occupying=20 on 50%=A0 of the=A0 allowable=A0 space on=A0 137=A0 and 99% of=20 the=A0 100Hz=A0 allocations=A0 for=A0 500K. and=A0 passing=20 via=A0 a=A0 non linear=A0 system , how=A0 long will=A0 it before=20 the=A0 first=A0 live=A0 data=A0 qso=A0 over the=A0 pond=20 ?
=A0
G .
=A0
=A0

Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re:= 137.500 kHz ROS beacon

Gary
There are too many variables with the= se experiments=20 for instance the French stn F5WK=A0cannot hear you but you are S5 solid=20 on=A0137.5=A0here at my qth
The RX stations antennas need to be= analyised=20 otherwise it misrepresents what you are doing.
Can u pse use frequencies below 136.5= kcs otherwise=20 there is a problem with EU and Russian stations using the area 137 - 137.7= 78 kcs=20 for QRS acty.
also this is the DX window area for= the USA and=20 others.
73 de mal/g3kev
=A0
=A0
=A0
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gary -=20 G4WGT
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:31= PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 137.500 kHz= ROS=20 beacon

Hi Mal,=20

Thank you for your report & comments. The mail you replied to= gives=20 all the details of equipment in use for the test beacon.

I would like to be able to have a QSO using morse but I have to adm= it to=20 a complete loss of confidence as I have not used the mode for 25 years= which=20 was one year after I passed the test in 1984. Looking back, letting it= go was=20 a silly thing to do.

I do enjoy testing out these "weak signal" modes & in= the report I=20 received from Michel F5WK last night he wrote that he could not hear the= =20 signal or even see it on SpecLab but he got a complete decode. So as a= weak=20 signal communication mode it works.

Just to elaborate on the antenna, it is a 12 metre base loaded vert= ical=20 with a small elevated inductor of 500uH at about 9 metres & a 1 x 3= metre=20 capacity top with a 120uH spiral inductor. In my small garden I have no= space=20 to go outwards only upwards.

73,

Gary - G4WGT.

On 20 June 2010 13:48, mal hamilton <g3= kevmal@talktalk.net>=20 wrote:
Gary
If that was you last nite on=A0= 137.5 kcs=20 you were strong enough for cw or qrs3=A0no need to struggle with decod= es=20 from elswhere.
also I had a qso with G3XIZ this= morning on=20 137.0 kcs and got 599, he was 569.
Not sure what antenna u were usin= g=A0but it=20 was putting out a fair signal to this qth. Your radiators are probably= =20 acting as an antenna above earth.
=A0
de mal/g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010= 12:07=20 PM
Subject: LF: 137.500 kHz ROS= =20 beacon

    Hi LF,
Having successfully bench & on-air tested a x2 harmonic amp= lifier=20 method of driving my G0MRF Class D LF transmitter, I ran a beacon la= st=20 night (Saturday 19th) on 137.500 kHz.

An extract from my previous e-mail description is shown at the= =20 end.

Using the equipment & method described below, the ERP from= my 12=20 metre vertical antenna was around 150mW. The mode was ROS MF-1, 100= Hz=20 bandwidth.

I received the following report from Michel, F5WK in JN18HP, a= =20 distance of 410 miles (661 kilometres) in daylight.

>> Not even a faint trace on a QRSS3 spectrum=20 but:

>> RX1: 19:23 @ 5.9 Hz: 9 <STOP> -37=20 dB
>> RX1: 19:28 @ 5.4 Hz: O4WGT <STOP> -34 dB
>= ;>=20 RX1: 19:33 @ 5.4 Hz: G4WGT <STOP> -31 dB

The x2 harmonic low level amplifier is a simple way of driving= a=20 Class D type of transmitter which employs a divide by 2 drive chain.= My=20 limitation with multi tone drive is that my DDS VFO will only produc= e 2=20 frequencies ie. the main frequency & a CW/Rx offset which has=20 previously limited me to 2 tones as with RTTY & DFCW modes.

Please bear in mind that it will not be suitable for modes like= PSK=20 were tones are transmitted simultaneously.

At the moment the 2 small PCB's are precariously lying on= the desk,=20 when I have cased them I will publish the circuit & pictures.

73

Gary - G4WGT.
    ***********************************************
    After a few days experimenting & bench testing a method of= =20 driving my
    G0MRF Class D Tx on the 137.000 kHz band from my lin= ear=20 transverter I finally
    constructed a harmonic amplifier producin= g a=20 274.000 kHz signal from 137.000
    kHz input. An "on-air"= ; trial was=20 conducted resulting in a QSO with
    Graham G0NBD on 137.000 kHz= using=20 ROS data mode software.
    =A0
    My thanks to Graham for his idea= s=20 & tests.
    =A0
    The mode used was ROS MF-7. The equipment= used=20 for the QSO was as
    follows. Kenwood TS-440 to my LF-MF linear= =20 transverter producing the
    137.000 kHz signal, followed by a tun= ed=20 harmonic circuit & buffer
    amplifier whose output was 274.00= 0 kHz=20 therefore at x2 drive for the Class
    D Tx. The x2 signal is then= =20 divided by the Tx driver chain in the
    normal way to provide 137= .000=20 kHz to the PA.
    =A0
    This method should also work well using= WSPR=20 & other similar modes.
    *********************************************






--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088
--00032555a7b691bfa704897c37d2--