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References: <21FA8F9FEFE24F03A62B82763B3FF8E2@JimPC>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:11:59 +0100
Message-ID: <AANLkTik2WX95ExdUi6gTtALYZgaM8eHlatgwy-n-1244@mail.gmail.com>
From: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
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Subject: Re: LF: VLF Cable Locator
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Thanks Jim. My dad used to use something similar when he worked for the
local water company about 40 years ago.

In the context of these long awaited NoVs, does anyone actually *know* what
the Wireless Telegraphy Act actually says?

What I'm wondering is, if there is no intention to radiate a signal at VLF -
rather the intention is to detect it purely by conduction through the ground
(and pipes) or by induction - does the WT act actually cover this? I have
taken the loose interpretation that earth mode with 4W is not going to
radiate more than picowatts and therefore I'm OK to continue whilst waiting
for my NoV.

Some informed guidance would be useful.

73s
Roger G3XBM

On 25 June 2010 19:57, James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com> wrote:

> Dear LF Group,
>
> On the subject of VLF signal propagation along buried conductors, and its
> use by cable locators, I thought it would be interesting to try one out, so
> I borrowed one (see attached picture)...
>
> The CAT detector part is a passive magnetic field sensor. It has an audible
> output and operates in 3 modes. "Power" mode detects 50Hz and harmonics from
> power cables, and also any other conductor that has some 50Hz common-mode
> current flowing in it, which is most conductors in practice! In "Radio"
> mode, it is a simple direct conversion VLF receiver with zero beat around
> 17.8kHz and bandwidth of a few kilohertz. This detects currents induced by
> signals from VLF utilities - it is quite sensitive, if you turn the gain
> control up you can hear several MSK signals and the background QRN too. I
> found the results rather ambiguous, since it is hard to decide if you are
> picking up a signal from a cable, or just the normal radiated signal.
>
> The "Generator" mode uses the seperate "Genny" unit to inject a signal into
> the cable you want to trace. It generates an on-off keyed CW signal at
> 32.768kHz; apparently the output current is 100mA. When the detector is
> switched to Generator mode, it acts as a 32.768kHz receiver with a bandwidth
> of a few hundred Hz, so you can hear the "beeps" from the generator. It is
> also quite sensitive in this mode; the literature says it can detect 5uA
> signal current 1m away.
>
> As a test, I connected one terminal of the generator to the mains earth in
> my house, and the the other terminal to some RF ground rods at the end of
> the garden. This gave a strong signal on the mains cable entering the house,
> and also apparently the gas main (which despite Mal's proclamations,
> stubbornly remains of a ferrous nature ;-)). It was possible to trace the
> various pipes and cables for hundreds of metres - the limiting factors
> seemed to be that as the pipes/cables branched off to other houses, street
> lighting, etc, the signal got weaker, presumably as an increasing portion of
> the signal current was diverted away from the main cable, and also some
> buzzing QRM appeared, which seemed to be associated with BT telecomms
> cables.
>
> Apparently, contractors are more or less obliged to have these detectors,
> so that if they accidentally dig up a pipe or a cable they can say they
> "took all reasonable precautions" for insurance purposes. But in use, the
> results certainly need to be interpreted with care - it is often unclear
> what is or isn't being detected. I suppose if you want to experiment with
> this kind of VLF transmission before an NoV is available, you could always
> say it wasn't radio, but a cable tracing experiment ;-)
>
> Cheers, Jim Moritz
> 73 de M0BMU
>
>


-- 
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
G3XBM    GQRP 1678      ISWL G11088

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Jim. My dad used to use something similar when he worked for the lo=
cal water company about 40 years ago.<br><br>In the context of these long=
 awaited NoVs, does anyone actually <u>know</u> what the Wireless Telegrap=
hy Act actually says? <br>
<br>What I&#39;m wondering is, if there is no intention to radiate a signa=
l at VLF - rather the intention is to detect it purely by conduction throu=
gh the ground (and pipes) or by induction - does the WT act actually cover=
 this? I have taken the loose interpretation that earth mode with 4W is no=
t going to radiate more than picowatts and therefore I&#39;m OK to continu=
e whilst waiting for my NoV.<br>
<br>Some informed guidance would be useful. <br><br>73s<br>Roger G3XBM<br>=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 June 2010 19:57, James Moritz <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.moritz@btopenworld.com">james.mor=
itz@btopenworld.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Dear LF Group,<=
br>
<br>
On the subject of VLF signal propagation along buried conductors, and its=
 use by cable locators, I thought it would be interesting to try one out,=
 so I borrowed one (see attached picture)...<br>
<br>
The CAT detector part is a passive magnetic field sensor. It has an audibl=
e output and operates in 3 modes. &quot;Power&quot; mode detects 50Hz and=
 harmonics from power cables, and also any other conductor that has some=
 50Hz common-mode current flowing in it, which is most conductors in pract=
ice! In &quot;Radio&quot; mode, it is a simple direct conversion VLF recei=
ver with zero beat around 17.8kHz and bandwidth of a few kilohertz. This=
 detects currents induced by signals from VLF utilities - it is quite sens=
itive, if you turn the gain control up you can hear several MSK signals an=
d the background QRN too. I found the results rather ambiguous, since it=
 is hard to decide if you are picking up a signal from a cable, or just th=
e normal radiated signal.<br>

<br>
The &quot;Generator&quot; mode uses the seperate &quot;Genny&quot; unit to=
 inject a signal into the cable you want to trace. It generates an on-off=
 keyed CW signal at 32.768kHz; apparently the output current is 100mA. Whe=
n the detector is switched to Generator mode, it acts as a 32.768kHz recei=
ver with a bandwidth of a few hundred Hz, so you can hear the &quot;beeps&=
quot; from the generator. It is also quite sensitive in this mode; the lit=
erature says it can detect 5uA signal current 1m away.<br>

<br>
As a test, I connected one terminal of the generator to the mains earth in=
 my house, and the the other terminal to some RF ground rods at the end of=
 the garden. This gave a strong signal on the mains cable entering the hou=
se, and also apparently the gas main (which despite Mal&#39;s proclamation=
s, stubbornly remains of a ferrous nature ;-)). It was possible to trace=
 the various pipes and cables for hundreds of metres - the limiting factor=
s seemed to be that as the pipes/cables branched off to other houses, stre=
et lighting, etc, the signal got weaker, presumably as an increasing porti=
on of the signal current was diverted away from the main cable, and also=
 some buzzing QRM appeared, which seemed to be associated with BT telecomm=
s cables.<br>

<br>
Apparently, contractors are more or less obliged to have these detectors,=
 so that if they accidentally dig up a pipe or a cable they can say they=
 &quot;took all reasonable precautions&quot; for insurance purposes. But=
 in use, the results certainly need to be interpreted with care - it is of=
ten unclear what is or isn&#39;t being detected. I suppose if you want to=
 experiment with this kind of VLF transmission before an NoV is available,=
 you could always say it wasn&#39;t radio, but a cable tracing experiment=
 ;-)<br>

<br>
Cheers, Jim Moritz<br>
73 de M0BMU<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"http://g3xb=
m-qrp.blogspot.com/">http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/</a><br><a href=3D"http=
://www.g3xbm.co.uk">http://www.g3xbm.co.uk</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.yo=
utube.com/user/g3xbm">http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm</a><br>
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088<br>

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