Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dj05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dj05.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.19.187.141]) by air-mc06.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMC063-a9754be2fd88a9; Thu, 06 May 2010 13:34:00 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dj05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 875E938000185; Thu, 6 May 2010 13:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OA4w2-00044t-AC for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 18:32:30 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OA4w1-00044k-M0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 18:32:29 +0100 Received: from cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be ([134.58.240.44]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OA4vy-0008Es-Oh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 18:32:29 +0100 Received: from smtps01.kuleuven.be (smtpshost01.kulnet.kuleuven.be [134.58.240.74]) by cavuit02.kulnet.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FFB51C002 for ; Thu, 6 May 2010 19:32:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ICTS-S-HUB-N2.luna.kuleuven.be (icts-s-hub-n2.luna.kuleuven.be [10.112.9.12]) by smtps01.kuleuven.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC2B31E705 for ; Thu, 6 May 2010 19:32:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ICTS-S-EXC2-CA.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.11.13]) by ICTS-S-HUB-N2.luna.kuleuven.be ([10.112.9.12]) with mapi; Thu, 6 May 2010 19:32:19 +0200 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Rik Strobbe To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:32:18 +0200 Thread-Topic: bandwidth ? Thread-Index: AQHK7UITixuhOoWCs0aBHnr+h2f/5g== Message-ID: Accept-Language: nl-NL, nl-BE Content-Language: nl-BE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nl-NL, nl-BE MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KULeuven-Information: Katholieke Universiteit Leuven X-KULeuven-Scanned: Found to be clean X-KULeuven-Envelope-From: rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: LF: bandwidth ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C3E8DF194F3ICTSSEXC2CAlu_" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039cdbc9d0a4be2fd865caa X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C3E8DF194F3ICTSSEXC2CAlu_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1254" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Graham, next question: how to define bandwidth (-3dB, -30dB, ... edge frequencies)= ? As I couldn't find a definition in our national ruling I had a look at "hi= gher levels". The only thing I found was in the IARU-Region 1 HF managers handbook: 1.153 occupied bandwidth: The width of a frequency band such that, below= the lower and above the upper frequency limits, the mean powers emitted= are each equal to a specified percentage =FD/2 of the total mean power of= a given emission. Unless otherwise specified in an ITU-R Recommendation= for the appropriate class of emission, the value of =FD/2 should be taken= as 0.5%. Taking this definition it depend on the power distribution of the signal.= That makes sense, but is very hard to measure. 73, Rik ON7YD ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk] Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010 15:08 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? Thank you , Rik, >From that , its possible that the other permits are similar Ok Tnx - G . From: Rik Strobbe Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:19 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? Graham, the document that gives us access to 500kHz says 100Hz bandwidth, but does= not say how many dB's the signal has to be attenuated at these limits. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.f= snet.co.uk] Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010 13:30 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? Ok Many thanks' for the reply's >From that .... next is :- >From the data, I assume that 100 Hz is the common limiting factor for= a narrow band data transmission that could be used by all who 'want= ed' to use it ?..(noted on the cw keying speed ~ BW) So if a value of 100 Hz is specified, what is the 'presumed' roll-of= f of the power in the said bands ?, assuming that the original concept= was based on CW operation , which by definition 'has to' generate sideba= nds , there must be an assumed tolerance ? Q would the deployment of a system that could defined as 125 hz ba= ndwidth ie 100 Hz with +/- 12.5 Hz overspill , cause a technical = breach of the regulations or be viewed as occupying the 'allocate= d' bandwidth for a telegraphy transmission ? , Taking that spectral measurements in the 10 Hz region are perhaps st= arting to test even the best equipment, the area is perhaps a little= empiric ? I use the word telegraphy, purposely to view/observe the situation inte= rims of the licence conditions and not on the basis of 'mode' which= like Liverpool and Everton have there own sub cultures but are still= football teams .. Thanks Graham G0NBD From: Graham Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? Can any one indicated what is the permitted =91telegraphy=92 bandwidth= of the various =91new=92 500KHz licences or special permits issued= round the EU and now the rest of the Globe ? I have the impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 transmis= sion bandwidth, in some cases, eg , Belgium at 100 Hz . Others appear to= be some what wider or not defined ?. Norway is CW only ? what is the Dutch allocation ? Southern Ireland ?= ... etc Are Beacons defined by mode or bandwidth ? Tnx =96 Graham G0NBD (I use the word =91telegraphy=92 as defined by the ITU R V.662-3 , ple= ase no reference to key clicks ! ) --_000_BF4A524700075746A6467658DFC7102C3E8DF194F3ICTSSEXC2CAlu_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1254" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Graham,
 
next question: how to define bandwid= th (-3dB, -30dB, ... edge frequencies) ?
As I= couldn't find a definition in our national ruling I had a look at "h= igher levels".
The only thing I found= was in the IARU-Region 1 HF managers handbook:

 

1.153 = occupied bandwidth: The width of a= frequency band such that, below the lower and above the upper frequency= limits, the mean powers emitted are each= equal to a specified percentage =FD/2 of the total mean power of a given emission. Unless otherwise specified in an ITU-R Recom= mendation for the appropriate class of emission<= /font>, the value= of =FD/2 should be taken as 0.5%.

 

Taking this definition it dep= end on the power distribution of the signal. That makes sense, but is very= hard to measure.

 

73, Rik  ON7YD

 
Van: owner-rsgb_= lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham= [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010 15:08
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global= ??

Thank you  , Rik,
 
From that  , its possible that&n= bsp; the  other  permits are  similar
 
Ok Tnx - G .

Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Glo= bal ??

Graham,
 
the document that gives us access to= 500kHz says 100Hz bandwidth, but does not say how many dB's the signal ha= s to be attenuated at these limits.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010 13:30
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global= ??

Ok Many  thanks'  for the&n= bsp; reply's
 
From that .... next is :-
 
From the  data, I assume th= at  100  Hz is the  common  limiting factor for a = ; narrow  band  data transmission  that  could be used= by all  who 'wanted'  to  use it  ?..(noted on the&nb= sp; cw keying  speed  ~ BW)
 
So if a  value of  100 Hz= is  specified, what  is the  'presumed'  roll-off of= the power in the said bands ?, assuming that  the  origina= l  concept was based on CW operation , which by  definition 'has= to' generate sidebands , there must be an assumed  tolerance ?
 
Q  would the deployment  of= a  system that  could   defined as   125 hz band= width  ie 100 Hz with   +/-  12.5 Hz  overspi= ll , cause  a  technical  breach  of the  regulat= ions  or  be  viewed as  occupying  the  'al= located' bandwidth  for a  telegraphy transmission ? ,
 
Taking that  spectral measuremen= ts in the  10  Hz  region are  perhaps  starting= to  test  even the  best equipment, the  area&nb= sp; is perhaps a  little  empiric ?
 
I use the  word  telegraphy= , purposely to view/observe the  situation interims of the  lice= nce  conditions and not on the  basis  of  'mode'= which like  Liverpool  and Everton have there  own sub cul= tures  but are still  football  teams ..
 
Thanks 
 
Graham
G0NBD
 
 
 
 

From: Graham
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global= ??

= 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth?

=  

= Can any one indicated  what is the  permitted  =91tele= graphy=92  bandwidth  of the various =91new=92 500KHz  <= /span>licences  or  special  permits issued rou= nd the  EU and now the  rest of the  Globe ?=

=  

= I have the impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 transmis= sion bandwidth, in some cases, eg , Belgium at 100 Hz= .  Others appear to be some what wider or not defined= ?.

=  

= Norway  is CW only  ? what is th= e  Dutch  allocation ? Southern Ireland ? ... etc

=  

= Are  Beacons defined by  mode or  bandwidth=  ?

=  

= Tnx =96 Graham

= G0NBD

=  

= (I use the  word  =91telegraphy=92 as defined by the&nb= sp; ITU R V.662-3 ,  please no  reference to key clicks != )







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