Return-Path: Received: from mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.140]) by air-mf08.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMF082-8bf64bfab53d88; Mon, 24 May 2010 13:19:57 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-me04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id BE686380001FF; Mon, 24 May 2010 13:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OGbIk-00050x-OB for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 May 2010 18:18:54 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OGbIk-00050o-6J for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 May 2010 18:18:54 +0100 Received: from fmmailgate04.web.de ([217.72.192.242]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OGbIh-0000pB-Qc for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 24 May 2010 18:18:54 +0100 Received: from mwmweb035 ( [172.20.18.44]) by fmmailgate04.web.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6533D67489BC for ; Mon, 24 May 2010 19:18:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [84.63.111.127] by mwmweb035 with HTTP; Mon May 24 19:18:46 CEST 2010 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1C00@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de>, Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 19:18:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <315092772.1763254.1274721526409.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb035> From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Horst_St=F6cker?= To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19d14LJhLHf0bxvQT9oTrZy18ih9HPayQwxYjJrd6YNCS2DhvaHGpzm Qg38hur9yOVPcLCjDjK7raBRi3/9vTyxlk0KmRTto4eZETSvMDicLw== X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.512,MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.001,MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI=0,MPART_ALT_DIFF=0.137 Subject: Re: LF: AW: 8.97kHz - Near field and radiated signals? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c424e80519e048759a498 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=4.2 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG,MIME_HTML_ONLY,MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI, PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608c4bfab53b22c9 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --0015174c424e80519e048759a498 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-ATTACHMENT-ID-POSTFIX: 41c89c93-588d-4310-be7b-0e4d8cd31601 Hello Roger, Dreamers,
if we define near field as < 2 lambda= we are talking about everything below 60 km.With this distance I woul be= extremely lucky.
I also do "walkaround tests" near my garden. But I= bet only in the flat field one can see what is possible with small antenn= a an without a big loading coil.
Out from my garden I tried my 10h/20= t Marconi as well as a 30m earth base. The Marconi worked better, but not= good enough. A TV transformer (must be flyback of course) made it much be= tter.
But all the trees and houses are coupling the radiated signal= to earth and also the AATIS-RX is very much influenced by them.
I al= so assume that the horinontal parts of a wire do the same. So only a verti= cal should work.
For operation in city environment smaller antennas= at the roof top (old CB antennas) will possibly work better than the bigg= er vertical in my garden between trees and houses at ground level. It migh= t be worth a test.
One of the next tests will be with my gig earth ba= se. I have collected about 800m of surplus wire. Possibly this is another= way to even radiate more then near field. But I would be very surprised= it this was good for any DX.
I bet Stefans kite antenna will at leas= t be the only way to DX operation. Unfortunately this is just portable and= just temporary.
vy73 Horst DO1KHS/DI2AN


Von: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
Gesende= t: 24.05.2010 18:36:28
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.orgBetreff: Re: LF: AW: 8.97kHz - Near field and radiated signals?<= br />
Thank you for your fast reply Stefan.

In answer to= your questions:
  • Currently, my TX electrode spacing is 10m, which is the best I= can manage in my small garden. Both electrodes are as far away from the= mains and other utility services as I can manage.
  • I have not tried /P transmit testing yet.
  • My nearest ham who will listen/look is 3kms away, but using bea= coning I am able to go out myself and see how far I can reach. This is wha= t I have done so far, going out into the fields behind my house with elect= rode pairs or a loop receiver. Best (by ear reception) DX is 0.35kms, but= the system has much scope for optimisation still.
  • The largest single turn loop I could erect in my garden would be about= 50-70 sq m (about 15m top and 4m-5m high). The longest antenna length wou= ld also be 15m horizontal with some vertical section(s) too.
  • The best DX targets are quite modest: I would like to exceed 1km initi= ally with the TX power I currently have (around 4W). If I could reach G6AL= B in the next village 3kms away I would be delighted. If I got any further= I would be both amazed and VERY happy!
73s
Roger G3XBM


2010/5/24 Stefan Schäfer <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de&= gt;
Hello Roger,

= For your ground electrodes, ground electrodes may be the best "antenna"= in some 10...10m. I'm not sure how to calculate field strengths but i jus= t know about the 1/d^3 dependency, so twice the distance means 8 times the= power for the same signal reception, in the near field. But it is the que= stion what are the electrodes since there is ever a coupling to the mains= earth and all the metallic stuff in regions where people are living so th= is dependency might not be valid in your tests. As mentioned here, you cou= ld benefit from these conductors...

But if you want to reach= more distance with an antenna of the same size (e.g. of your garden)and= the same power, you could try such a TV transformer. Take a wire, as long= as possible and as high as possible, and apply some kV on it by this tran= sformer. It can even be resonated by adjusting the air gap between the bot= h ferrite parts. That results in a maximum output voltage and thus "ERP".= At least this would be a good alternative to your ground electrode tests.= You could easily compare the reachable distances. Here i would use a E fi= eld antenna for reception in the near field.

How far is your= next receiving amateur radio station away? And have you tried to do such= tests outside the village/city, just like Jim does it with his loop anten= na? This could allow you to increase the distance of your reception. Here,= space is not limited and you could try 2x10m, 2x50m, 2x100m and so on and= tell us the difference in the feed point impedance at various frequencies= and your ODX :-) Maybe i will also do some ground electrode tests in summ= er but i am still not sure. The complete receiver of Jim is a really good= idea to check the QRM situation at a given QTH. Probably i will also buit= his loop design for such tests... Would be interesing what is the maximum= distance for a CW reception of my transmitted signal (with the kite anten= na and 6mW ERP) ;-)

I will also do some near field tests in th= is week, to compare the performance of my 2 grabbers. This will be done he= re: http://www.google.de/ma= ps?f=3Dq&source=3Ds_q&hl=3Dde&geocode=3D&q=3Dheiligenberg+= heidelberg&sll=3D47.820666,9.312449&sspn=3D0.106733,0.219383&g= =3Dheiligenberg&ie=3DUTF8&hq=3D&hnear=3DHeiligenberg&ll=3D= 49.419391,8.704101&spn=3D0.001616,0.003428&t=3Dh&z=3D18 in= about 1,8km distance to my grabbers. Power will also be below 100W and th= e antenna wire will be mounted on a tower in abt 15m height. I will transm= it with this TV transformer on a 40m wire.

Roger, what size is= your garden? What is the maximum wire length that you can apply and in wh= ich height? What is your goal (best DX, a reals QSO with the next equipped= station or just do some funny tests?)

So, wish you fun and su= ccess with your experiments!

73, Stefan/DK7FC

PS:= What is your locator / QTH?




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