Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mj09.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mj09.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.164.93]) by air-me04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINME041-8bac4be308e318e; Thu, 06 May 2010 14:22:27 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mj09.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id EF79238000106; Thu, 6 May 2010 14:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OA5hF-0004ST-I3 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 19:21:17 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OA5hE-0004S7-Kk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 19:21:16 +0100 Received: from out1.ip04ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.240]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OA5hA-0000E9-Iv for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 19:21:16 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao0OAOik4ksCYhIP/2dsb2JhbACBP4xxA4kChjsDcb4ShRME X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,342,1270422000"; d="scan'208,217";a="291236234" Received: from unknown (HELO your91hoehfy9g) ([2.98.18.15]) by out1.ip04ir2.opaltelecom.net with SMTP; 06 May 2010 19:20:04 +0100 Message-ID: <004701caed48$c1da2e10$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <6C0A9ACBA77A40D6A17362F114DC0A7D@AGB> <003701caed43$95e00a00$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:20:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=0.234,SUBJECT_ENCODED_TWICE=1.543 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_Re:_LF:_500_Permit_emission=92s_bandwidth=3F_EU_and_?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Global_=3F=3F?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01CAED51.23762680" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039400c89b24be308e1325d X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01CAED51.23762680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger 160 metres is vy similar to 600metres, why not use 160 where there is= plenty of space. Why are the appliance operators and their data swamp= ing the 3 khz on 600.=20 What is the logic? mal/g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roger Lapthorn=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 7:05 PM Subject: LF: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Globa= l ?? Mal, Most would agree there is no place for data modes that take up lots= of bandwidth, but 500kHz is an ideal band to experiment with narrow= band data modes and some of the work being undertaken is very far rem= oved from appliance operation. 73s Roger G3XBM On 6 May 2010 18:43, mal hamilton wrote: The majority of CW operators on LF/FMF will not exceed 100 hz band= width. 99.9% are sending at speeds of about 10wpm or less. 100 hz is about right on LF/MF where the total bandwidth of the pe= rmitted allocation is about 3 khz also, as far as data modes are concerned all that is happening on= LF/MF is bodging data modes meant for vhf/uhf applications and making= a mess, ie the Appliance Operator approach g3kev ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rik Strobbe=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: RE: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Globa= l ?? Graham, the document that gives us access to 500kHz says 100Hz bandwidth= , but does not say how many dB's the signal has to be attenuated at th= ese limits. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk] Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010 13:30 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Glo= bal ?? Ok Many thanks' for the reply's From that .... next is :- From the data, I assume that 100 Hz is the common limiting= factor for a narrow band data transmission that could be used by= all who 'wanted' to use it ?..(noted on the cw keying speed ~= BW) So if a value of 100 Hz is specified, what is the 'presumed= ' roll-off of the power in the said bands ?, assuming that the orig= inal concept was based on CW operation , which by definition 'has to= ' generate sidebands , there must be an assumed tolerance ? Q would the deployment of a system that could defined as= 125 hz bandwidth ie 100 Hz with +/- 12.5 Hz overspill , cause= a technical breach of the regulations or be viewed as occupy= ing the 'allocated' bandwidth for a telegraphy transmission ? ,=20 Taking that spectral measurements in the 10 Hz region are = perhaps starting to test even the best equipment, the area is= perhaps a little empiric ? I use the word telegraphy, purposely to view/observe the situ= ation interims of the licence conditions and not on the basis of= 'mode' which like Liverpool and Everton have there own sub cultur= es but are still football teams .. Thanks =20 Graham G0NBD From: Graham=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? Can any one indicated what is the permitted =91telegraphy=92= bandwidth of the various =91new=92 500KHz licences or special = permits issued round the EU and now the rest of the Globe ?=20 I have the impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy= =92 transmission bandwidth, in some cases, eg , Belgium at 100 Hz . = Others appear to be some what wider or not defined ?.=20 Norway is CW only ? what is the Dutch allocation ? Southern= Ireland ? ... etc=20 Are Beacons defined by mode or bandwidth ? Tnx =96 Graham G0NBD (I use the word =91telegraphy=92 as defined by the ITU R V.66= 2-3 , please no reference to key clicks ! ) --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01CAED51.23762680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger
160 metres is vy similar to 600metres= , why not use=20 160 where there is plenty of space. Why are the appliance operato= rs and=20 their data swamping the 3 khz on 600.
What is the logic?
mal/g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010= 7:05=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: LF: 500 Perm= it=20 emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ??

Mal,

Most would agree there is no place for da= ta modes=20 that take up lots of bandwidth, but 500kHz is an ideal band to exper= iment=20 with narrow band data modes and some of the work being undert= aken is=20 very far removed from appliance operation.

73s
Roger G3XBM=

On 6 May 2010 18:43, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talkt= alk.net>=20 wrote:
The majority of CW operators on= LF/FMF will not=20 exceed 100 hz bandwidth. 99.9% are sending at speeds of about 10wp= m or=20 less.
100 hz is about right on LF/MF wh= ere the total=20 bandwidth of the permitted allocation is about 3 khz
also, as far as data modes are co= ncerned all=20 that is happening on LF/MF is bodging data modes meant for vhf/uhf= =20 applications and making a mess, ie the Appliance Operator=20 approach
 
 
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rik Strobbe=20
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Thursday, May 06,= 2010 1:19=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: 500 Perm= it=20 emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ??

Graham,
 
the document that gives us acc= ess to 500kHz=20 says 100Hz bandwidth, but does not say how many dB's the signal= has to be=20 attenuated at these limits.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [own= er-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.f= snet.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag=20 6 mei 2010 13:30
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blackshe= ep.org
Onderwerp: Re:=20 LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ??

Ok Many  thanks'  for= the =20 reply's
 
From that .... next is :-
 
From the  data, I ass= ume that =20 100  Hz is the  common  limiting factor for a&nbs= p;=20 narrow  band  data transmission  that  could= be used=20 by all  who 'wanted'  to  use it  ?..(noted= on=20 the  cw keying  speed  ~ BW)
 
So if a  value of  10= 0 Hz is =20 specified, what  is the  'presumed'  roll-off of= the power=20 in the said bands ?, assuming that  the  original=  =20 concept was based on CW operation , which by  definition 'h= as to'=20 generate sidebands , there must be an assumed  toleran= ce=20 ?
 
Q  would the deployment&nb= sp; of a =20 system that  could   defined as   125 hz=20 bandwidth  ie 100 Hz with   +/-  12.5 Hz&nbs= p;=20 overspill , cause  a  technical  breach  of= the =20 regulations  or  be  viewed as  occupying&nb= sp;=20 the  'allocated' bandwidth  for a  telegraphy tra= nsmission=20 ? ,
 
Taking that  spectral meas= urements in=20 the  10  Hz  region are  perhaps  start= ing=20 to  test  even the  best equipment, the = ;=20 area  is perhaps a  little  empiric ?
 
I use the  word  tele= graphy,=20 purposely to view/observe the  situation interims of the&nb= sp;=20 licence  conditions and not on the  basis = of =20 'mode' which like  Liverpool  and Everton have there&n= bsp; own=20 sub cultures  but are still  football  teams=20 ..
 
Thanks 
 
Graham
G0NBD
 
 
 
 

From: Graham
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU= and Global=20 ??

500 Permit=20 emission=92s bandwidth?

 

Can any=20 one indicated  what is the  = permitted=20  =91telegraphy=92  bandwidth=  =20 of the various =91new=92 500KHz  licenc= es =20 or  special  permits= issued=20 round the  EU and now the  r= est of=20 the  Globe ?

 

I have the=20 impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 transmiss= ion bandwidth,=20 in some cases, eg , Belgium at 100 Hz .  Others appear= to be some what=20 wider or not defined ?.

 

Norway  is CW only = ; ? what is the =20 Dutch  allocation ? Southern Ireland ? ... etc

 

Are  Beacons defined by = =20 mode or  bandwidth=20  ?

 

Tnx =96=20 Graham

G0NBD

 

(I use=20 the  word  =91telegraphy=92= as defined by=20 the  ITU R V.662-3 ,  please= =20 no  reference to key clicks !=20 )








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