Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dc07.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dc07.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.135]) by air-mb03.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMB034-a21f4bbcf10a26b; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:54:34 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dc07.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id AA0CE380000A5; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NzcFV-0007IN-RE for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:53:21 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NzcFV-0007IE-3a for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:53:21 +0100 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NzcFT-0006Sd-2Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:53:21 +0100 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so52399bwz.4 for ; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:53:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:received:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=7bufz9i25/yxQophtulpyS2DIzEw9NUb3J5eCpZ9bTc=; b=DNDI6ambIPB1GnWIYRfUUVwjYj7L07SE14RgmPY5XfLvEz6dhfNvGu7LHymUlNvurg t6K7s4BrAZ6CNn71ZIkOFxGe4ubLRcTiQ2HIrr27tBzcMVHY73xVNR/wnz6HLGl9nNUz zy8lvbb2E6hUIOO6EQI3o5kTjSy9d5Xq05JVs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=dJJ3B4jy/WvBGzSkuk86geQxu551d9KqTmaZMVDnMTf0B2j3+njsout9PrZ/25aWp/ zmgiezefRC8qwwRVqWjy9icqJRT7/aYfB3Of/jdjd0UfB29gRGvuwsmzFEw7xvSgicu2 kWQu3cIn7Tm7gtF3P/ZwUJqiLI0LNWOyCyAYI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.120.212 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:53:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <246800.97010.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <246800.97010.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:53:11 +0100 Received: by 10.204.146.135 with SMTP id h7mr8977567bkv.200.1270673592194; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174733da1699ac0483abc0a1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d240.2 ; domain : googlemail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40874bbcf1065bf9 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --0015174733da1699ac0483abc0a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not quite sure what you're trying to suggest... There is no 'magic' to a phase continuous oscillator. Any single oscillator whose frequency is controlled by adjusting the frequency determining element will inherently *have* to be phase continuous. Simple examples are a varicap tuned LC or crystal source, or a DDS where changing the increment to the NCO is the tuning element. In the former you may have a problem getting sufficiently close enough to= a 1.46Hz shift (actually the value is 12000/8192 =3D 1.46484375Hz). But fo= r a DDS no problem, even with many stages of frequency multiplication. I hav= e only ever used the DDS implementation, but there are many people out there who have built highly sucessful low power WSPR beacons - many based around varicap controlled crystal oscillators controlled from a microcontroller. As mentioned before, JT4 is much the same as WSPR, and I've tested many successful beacon sources for that, - in fact the 10GHz beacon GB3SCX transmits JT4G using a DDS in a PLL, and controlled to set one of four frequencies from another PIC generating the JT4G symbols. http://www.scrbg.org/JT4_GB3SCX.pdf The only really critical thing about the mode is gettign the symbol timing right. Be just a fraction of a percent out and after the 110 second transmission period, if you have drifted by more than about 20% of the 680= ms long symbol period, decoding will suffer. Actual start time of the transmission can vary by a few seconds either way, but symbol timing MUST= be better than 0.1%. No big deal for a crystal oscillator, but the PIC code must gets its counters and division ratios right! (Certain cheap sound cards cannot manage it though) But, while on the same subject. Why reject a PC out of hand. They are= now so ubiquitous, that old laptops appear at rallies/boot sales/junk fairs an= d cost next to nothing. Almost anything running Win 98 or later will do fo= r WSPR and WSJT - although you may have to use an external USB headphone dongle if the internal soundcard is too ancient. (a couple of quid from Ebay) At the recent Bournemouth Sale, I saw Toshiba laptops (135MHz clock runnin= g Win 98) identical to the one I use currently 24/7 for the 5MHz beacon monitoring project, being sold by a trader for a mere =A315 each. You could probably find a suitable one on a rubbish tip even, fully working.= I also picked up a very nice Toshiba lightweight notebook (700 MHz clock) Wi= n XP for =A340 a couple of years ago, and have to stop buying old laptops= as they're just too plentiful now. Andy www.g4jnt.com On 7 April 2010 20:55, M0FMT wrote: > Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September > last year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you migh= t > say from the Horse Mouth) and he said :- > > On *Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor * wrote: > > From: Joe Taylor > Subject: Re: WSPR > To: "M0FMT" > Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM > > Hi Peter, > > > Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.e 0,1 on th= e > serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo? > > No. > > > If the software doesn't have this facility why not? > > Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one= , > that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase > 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones. > > The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode. > > With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built > special-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FS= K > capability in hardware. Their keying is typically controlled from a > microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in= ROM. > -- 73, Joe, K1JT > > 73 es GL petefmt > > > --- On *Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe * wrote: > > > From: Rik Strobbe > Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? > To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" > Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23 > > hello Chris, Jim, group, > > an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say from 5MHz > (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz. > That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TTL= IC. > I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR > audio signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divider > ratio. > It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no real "D= X > tests" so. > But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the softwa= re. > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > ________________________________________ > Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org[ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] > namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com > ] > Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09 > Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? > > Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group, > > What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving= WSPR > via the PIC might be a bit more difficult... > > But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing > up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz > and > be used in place of the VCO in your TX. > > Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might > have > to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for homebre= w > HF > WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k. > > Cheers, Jim Moritz > 73 de M0BMU > > > --0015174733da1699ac0483abc0a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not quite sure what you're trying to suggest...
=A0
There is no 'magic' to a phase continuous oscillator.=A0=A0= Any single oscillator whose frequency is controlled by adjusting the freq= uency determining element will inherently have to be phase continuo= us.=A0 Simple examples are a varicap tuned LC or crystal source, or a DDS= where changing the increment to the NCO is the tuning element.=A0
=A0
In the former you may have a problem getting sufficiently close enoug= h to a 1.46Hz shift (actually the value is 12000/8192 =3D 1.46484375Hz).= =A0=A0 But for a DDS no problem, even with many stages of frequency multip= lication.=A0=A0 I have only ever used=A0the DDS implementation, but there= are many people out there who have built highly sucessful low power WSPR= beacons - many based around varicap controlled crystal oscillators contro= lled from a microcontroller.=A0=A0
=A0
As mentioned before, =A0JT4 is much the same as WSPR, and I've te= sted=A0many successful beacon sources for that, - in fact the 10GHz beacon= GB3SCX transmits JT4G using a DDS in a PLL, and controlled to set one of= four frequencies from another PIC generating the JT4G symbols.=A0 http://www.scrbg.org/JT4_GB3SCX.p= df
=A0
The only really critical thing about the mode is gettign the symbol= timing right.=A0=A0=A0 Be just a fraction of a percent out and after the= 110 second transmission period, if you have drifted by more than about 20= % of the 680ms long symbol period, decoding will suffer.=A0=A0=A0 Actual= start time of the transmission can vary by a few seconds either way, but= symbol timing MUST be better than 0.1%.=A0=A0 No big deal for a crystal= oscillator, but the PIC code must gets its counters and division ratios= right!=A0=A0 (Certain cheap sound cards cannot manage it though)
=A0
But, while on the same subject.=A0 Why reject a PC out of hand.=A0=A0= They are now so ubiquitous, that old laptops appear at rallies/boot sales= /junk fairs and cost next to nothing.=A0=A0 Almost anything running Win 98= or later will do for WSPR and WSJT - although you may have to use an exte= rnal USB headphone dongle if the internal soundcard is too ancient.=A0 (a= couple of quid from Ebay)
At the recent Bournemouth Sale, I saw Toshiba laptops (135MHz clock= running Win 98)=A0 identical to the one I use currently 24/7 for the 5MHz= beacon monitoring project, being =A0sold by a trader for a mere =A315 eac= h.=A0=A0=A0 You could probably find a suitable one on a rubbish tip even,= fully working.=A0=A0 I also picked up a very nice Toshiba lightweight not= ebook (700 MHz clock) Win XP =A0for =A340 a couple of years ago, and have= to stop buying old laptops as they're just too plentiful now.
=A0
=A0
On 7 April 2010 20:55, M0FMT = <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>= wrote:
Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September= last year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you might= say from the Horse Mouth)=A0and he said :-
=A0
On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU> wr= ote:

From: Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSP= R
To: "M0FMT" <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM

Hi Peter,

> Does your Software have a data output that give= s a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo?

No.<= br>
> If the software doesn't have this facility why not?
Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one,= that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase= 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones.

The WSPR program, as dis= tributed, is essentially a sound card mode.

With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built= special-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK= capability in hardware.=A0 Their keying is typically controlled from a=A0= microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in RO= M.
=A0=A0=A0 -- 73, Joe, K1JT

73 es GL petefmt


--- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be<= /a>> wrote:

From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be&g= t;
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ?
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.o= rg" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23

hello Chris, Jim, group,

an alternative to a transverted would= be a divider, let's say from 5MHz (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz.That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TTL= IC.
I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR aud= io signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divider ratio= .
It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no real= "DX tests" so.
But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the software= .

73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T

__________________________________= ______
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@b= lacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without= an SSB TRX ?

Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group,

What Andy suggests is fine for gene= rating a WSPR signal, but receiving WSPR
via the PIC might be a bit mor= e difficult...

But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy'= s simple phasing
up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz= and
be used in place of the VCO in your TX.

Trawling through th= e Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might have
to sign up to= see all the material) will reveal many designs for homebrew HF
WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k.

Cheers, Jim Mori= tz
73 de M0BMU


--0015174733da1699ac0483abc0a1--