Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mc07.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mc07.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.79]) by air-me10.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINME102-8bc54bbd00bf172; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 18:01:35 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mc07.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6BDB5380000B2; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 18:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NzdIZ-0007zY-FN for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:00:35 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NzdIY-0007zP-Ka for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:00:34 +0100 Received: from web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.127]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NzdIY-0006v5-DE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:00:34 +0100 Received: (qmail 31100 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Apr 2010 22:00:28 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1270677628; bh=lDpBiXrtBiecn23aD9XAIEKKf7DiMOYiXfTtyQjTAJk=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=LNW5x+upmbiWn/hWJvGylQVCXdCCxoGmq9gxyHol7aUqh2PRnnOAf746B+wYdnlLACkMp2zVzYrmoyDxdnDlfq1rfJ6XKOxjVyt5x83QEnPcwMeExp4opxKAGVbGyWsF0Xdb62ZrnFoi35k1RMJdK1jeGsR0zTZHuKl0iIHING8= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=x5eqgy+MTP20sHC9TDz5VwJmjA7OcWYCPAeEr+9H4rs0grtjqeuDkbDihnIn6aeLu6E5QcUyw2MZx1hh6j3PiZRxo9KGu9XsD8w9eRiZrK8X/Z41g3IlbxcRd+2XNNVSE0J04bDVfNmsqpWINlDG0BMt+SCGILmkUJpngiHUg3Q=; Message-ID: <684841.30158.qm@web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 73p7LKgVM1kd8qck9A_1YdNAKjrky_UaSRVEly2NRgBmAo3 RvijdPQ8xx8yfdcbqVSJ.Hu4iBI7Cq09IMxcF8gb9XHlw97.Lj4efL272Tly 0wvQjLNCTWngiJIRxXR5tbrM135FZjlGwrakiNmuBf8YMjW.c8Kl4DasRj9f Liu7czC.fF_lqRKNOxmWOgYG0xfCE.yfKid4VaHhfciE36cpvcDrwX2CTYOk dYhsru02wopkWhyYq7e3.q2tmCpN3SijSu80LnuGyGvRh.aI2YA-- Received: from [86.147.176.209] by web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:00:28 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/10.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:00:28 -0700 (PDT) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-155469440-1270677628=:30158" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m227.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d604f4bbd00bd0ab9 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-155469440-1270677628=:30158 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andy and group =A0 What I am saying is that simplicity in that it's all done in the PC with= software already written (no need to reinvent the wheel) no need to progr= am PICs etc. Unless of coarse you want it PCless then there=A0is=A0point= to it. The WSPR software exists the Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) exists and= a SDR TX software exists. Just down load and run. For the end user, a no= -brainer! The only hardware is the Multiplex chip Quadrature detector 90d= egree phase shift Local oscillator to give a sideband signal on the desire= d frequency to be amplified to final=A0O/P. i.e. Softrock TX RX.=A0cheap= kit! =A0 That's what=A0I am trying to suggest. I note that G3ZJO has made a simple phase shift modulator driven with a PI= C for WSPR using a 74HC86 chip.see =A0http://g3zjo-radio.blog.co.uk/2009/1= 0/26/wspr-organ-computerless-wspr-tx-7249318/=A0That may also be a good SS= B rig less=A0method for 500kc/s but not tried it because the above method= I have suggested does=A0not rely on=A0a PIC programmer which=A0I don't ha= ve and I have already built Softrock TXRX and the rest is soldering iron= less PC software exercise.=A0 =A0 Joe Taylor said in his reply to me that what you have suggested=A0is being= done. =A0 If you write up a surefire design I for one would like to build it=A0. =A0 In the mean time the only surefire method I have made that does not requir= e an SSB rig is the one I described above. i.e make an SDR TXRX and use pl= ug and play software. And its cheap as chips to put together. =A0 I grant you it is not PCless but it is SSB rigless, one out of two........= ... =A0 BTW=A0I agree with your comment ..Why reject a PC out of hand. 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, Andy Talbot wrote: From: Andy Talbot Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 21:53 Not quite sure what you're trying to suggest... =A0 There is no 'magic' to a phase continuous oscillator.=A0=A0 Any single osc= illator whose frequency is controlled by adjusting the frequency determini= ng element will inherently have to be phase continuous.=A0 Simple examples= are a varicap tuned LC or crystal source, or a DDS where changing the inc= rement to the NCO is the tuning element.=A0=20 =A0 In the former you may have a problem getting sufficiently close enough to= a 1.46Hz shift (actually the value is 12000/8192 =3D 1.46484375Hz).=A0=A0= But for a DDS no problem, even with many stages of frequency multiplicati= on.=A0=A0 I have only ever used=A0the DDS implementation, but there are ma= ny people out there who have built highly sucessful low power WSPR beacons= - many based around varicap controlled crystal oscillators controlled fro= m a microcontroller.=A0=A0=20 =A0 As mentioned before, =A0JT4 is much the same as WSPR, and I've tested=A0ma= ny successful beacon sources for that, - in fact the 10GHz beacon GB3SCX= transmits JT4G using a DDS in a PLL, and controlled to set one of four fr= equencies from another PIC generating the JT4G symbols.=A0 http://www.scrb= g.org/JT4_GB3SCX.pdf =A0 The only really critical thing about the mode is gettign the symbol timing= right.=A0=A0=A0 Be just a fraction of a percent out and after the 110 sec= ond transmission period, if you have drifted by more than about 20% of the= 680ms long symbol period, decoding will suffer.=A0=A0=A0 Actual start tim= e of the transmission can vary by a few seconds either way, but symbol tim= ing MUST be better than 0.1%.=A0=A0 No big deal for a crystal oscillator,= but the PIC code must gets its counters and division ratios right!=A0=A0= (Certain cheap sound cards cannot manage it though) =A0 But, while on the same subject.=A0 Why reject a PC out of hand.=A0=A0 They= are now so ubiquitous, that old laptops appear at rallies/boot sales/junk= fairs and cost next to nothing.=A0=A0 Almost anything running Win 98 or= later will do for WSPR and WSJT - although you may have to use an externa= l USB headphone dongle if the internal soundcard is too ancient.=A0 (a cou= ple of quid from Ebay) At the recent Bournemouth Sale, I saw Toshiba laptops (135MHz clock runnin= g Win 98)=A0 identical to the one I use currently 24/7 for the 5MHz beacon= monitoring project, being =A0sold by a trader for a mere =A315 each.=A0= =A0=A0 You could probably find a suitable one on a rubbish tip even, fully= working.=A0=A0 I also picked up a very nice Toshiba lightweight notebook= (700 MHz clock) Win XP =A0for =A340 a couple of years ago, and have to st= op buying old laptops as they're just too plentiful now. =A0 =A0 Andy www.g4jnt.com On 7 April 2010 20:55, M0FMT wrote: Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September last= year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you might say= from the Horse Mouth)=A0and he said :- =A0 On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor wrote: From: Joe Taylor Subject: Re: WSPR To: "M0FMT" Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM Hi Peter, > Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the= serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo? No. > If the software doesn't have this facility why not? Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one,= that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase= 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones. The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode. With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built spec= ial-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK capa= bility in hardware.=A0 Their keying is typically controlled from a=A0 micr= oprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in ROM. =A0=A0=A0 -- 73, Joe, K1JT 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe wrote: From: Rik Strobbe Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23 hello Chris, Jim, group, an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say from 5MHz (f= rom a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz. That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TTL IC= . I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR aud= io signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divider ratio= . It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no real "DX= tests" so. But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the software= . 73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com] Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group, What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving WSP= R via the PIC might be a bit more difficult... But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz= and be used in place of the VCO in your TX. Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might ha= ve to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for homebrew= HF WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU =20 --0-155469440-1270677628=:30158 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andy and group
 
What I am saying is that simplicity in that it's all done in the PC= with software already written (no need to reinvent the wheel) no need to= program PICs etc. Unless of coarse you want it PCless then there is&= nbsp;point to it. The WSPR software exists the Virtual Audio Cable (VAC)= exists and a SDR TX software exists. Just down load and run. For the end= user, a no -brainer! The only hardware is the Multiplex chip Quadrature= detector 90degree phase shift Local oscillator to give a sideband signal= on the desired frequency to be amplified to final O/P. i.e. So= ftrock TX RX. cheap kit!
 
That's what I am trying to suggest.

I note that G3ZJO has made a simple phase shift modulator driven= with a PIC for WSPR using a 74HC86 chip.see  htt= p://g3zjo-radio.blog.co.uk/2009/10/26/wspr-organ-computerless-wspr-tx-7249= 318/ That may also be a good SSB rig less method for 500kc/s= but not tried it because the above method I have suggested does not= rely on a PIC programmer which I don't have and I have already= built Softrock TXRX and the rest is soldering iron less PC software exerc= ise. 
 
Joe Taylor said in his reply to me that what you have= suggested is being done.
 
If you write up a surefire design I for one would like= to build it .
 
In the mean time the only surefire method I have made= that does not require an SSB rig is the one I described above. i.e make= an SDR TXRX and use plug and play software. And its cheap as chips to put= together.
 
I grant you it is not PCless but it is SSB rigless, on= e out of two...........
 
BTW I agree with your comment ..Why reject a PC= out of hand.

73 es GL petefmt

--- On Wed, 7/4/10, Andy Talbot <= ;andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com> wrote:

From: Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@googlemail.co= m>
Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe= Taylor NPwinner
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Wednesday,= 7 April, 2010, 21:53

Not quite sure what you're trying to suggest...
 
There is no 'magic' to a phase continuous oscillator.   Any= single oscillator whose frequency is controlled by adjusting the frequenc= y determining element will inherently have to be phase continuous.&= nbsp; Simple examples are a varicap tuned LC or crystal source, or a DDS= where changing the increment to the NCO is the tuning element. 
 
In the former you may have a problem getting sufficiently close enoug= h to a 1.46Hz shift (actually the value is 12000/8192 =3D 1.46484375Hz).&n= bsp;  But for a DDS no problem, even with many stages of frequency mu= ltiplication.   I have only ever used the DDS implementatio= n, but there are many people out there who have built highly sucessful low= power WSPR beacons - many based around varicap controlled crystal oscilla= tors controlled from a microcontroller.  
 
As mentioned before,  JT4 is much the same as WSPR, and I've tes= ted many successful beacon sources for that, - in fact the 10GHz beac= on GB3SCX transmits JT4G using a DDS in a PLL, and controlled to set one= of four frequencies from another PIC generating the JT4G symbols. = http://www.scrbg.org/JT4_GB3SCX.pdf
 
The only really critical thing about the mode is gettign the symbol= timing right.    Be just a fraction of a percent out and= after the 110 second transmission period, if you have drifted by more tha= n about 20% of the 680ms long symbol period, decoding will suffer. &n= bsp;  Actual start time of the transmission can vary by a few seconds= either way, but symbol timing MUST be better than 0.1%.   No bi= g deal for a crystal oscillator, but the PIC code must gets its counters= and division ratios right!   (Certain cheap sound cards cannot= manage it though)
 
But, while on the same subject.  Why reject a PC out of hand.&nb= sp;  They are now so ubiquitous, that old laptops appear at rallies/b= oot sales/junk fairs and cost next to nothing.   Almost anything= running Win 98 or later will do for WSPR and WSJT - although you may have= to use an external USB headphone dongle if the internal soundcard is too= ancient.  (a couple of quid from Ebay)
At the recent Bournemouth Sale, I saw Toshiba laptops (135MHz clock= running Win 98)  identical to the one I use currently 24/7 for the= 5MHz beacon monitoring project, being  sold by a trader for a mere= =A315 each.    You could probably find a suitable one on= a rubbish tip even, fully working.   I also picked up a very ni= ce Toshiba lightweight notebook (700 MHz clock) Win XP  for =A340 a= couple of years ago, and have to stop buying old laptops as they're just= too plentiful now.
 
 
On 7 April 2010 20:55, M0FMT <= m0f= mt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September= last year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you might= say from the Horse Mouth) and he said :-
 
On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU> wr= ote:

From: Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSP= R
To: "M0FMT" <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 7 September,= 2009, 1:47 PM

Hi Peter,

> Does your Software have a data output that give= s a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo?

No.<= BR>
> If the software doesn't have this facility why not?

Bec= ause there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one, tha= t would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase 4-FSK= with offset 1.465 Hz between tones.

The WSPR program, as distribut= ed, is essentially a sound card mode.

With that said, it should be= noted that a number of people have built special-purpose WSPR transmitter= s that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK capability in hardware.  Th= eir keying is typically controlled from a  microprocessor, with the= encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in ROM.
   = -- 73, Joe, K1JT

73 es GL petefmt


--- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe <Ri= k.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be> wrote:

From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Str= obbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX= ?
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Date: Wednesday, 7 Ap= ril, 2010, 14:23

hello Chris, Jim, group,

an alternative to a transverted would= be a divider, let's say from 5MHz (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz.
Th= at would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TTL IC.<= BR>I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR= audio signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divider= ratio.
It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did= no real "DX tests" so.
But if anyone wants to try this route I will be= happy to send the software.

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

____= ____________________________________
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<= /A>] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.co= m]
Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp:= Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ?

Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group,
<= BR>What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving= WSPR
via the PIC might be a bit more difficult...

But also at= http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing
up-c= onverter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz andbe used in place of the VCO in your TX.

Trawling through the Foru= m topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might have
to sign up to see= all the material) will reveal many designs for homebrew HF
WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted= to 500k.

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU
<= /TD>



=20 --0-155469440-1270677628=:30158--