Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mc09.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mc09.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.81]) by air-me03.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINME031-8ba84bbd162694; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:32:54 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mc09.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id EF68338000199; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Nzeip-0000XU-AZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:31:47 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Nzeio-0000XL-0B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:31:46 +0100 Received: from out1.ip06ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.242]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzeik-0007aO-BR for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:31:45 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai8FABuyvEtcGTTr/2dsb2JhbACBP41vhXCGCnG6ZoUJBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,166,1270422000"; d="scan'208,217";a="455667440" Received: from unknown (HELO laptopcore2) ([92.25.52.235]) by out1.ip06ir2.opaltelecom.net with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 00:31:32 +0100 From: "g3zjo" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:31:32 +0100 Message-ID: <000001cad6aa$750e8270$0202a8c0@laptopcore2> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <15055.69446.qm@web28103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6B2.D6D2EA70" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60514bbd162339f9 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6B2.D6D2EA70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pete That's right my info is coded on the chip and not written to be easily (externally) recoded, hence, since I can't represent 0.0002W using WSPR I am lazy and I stick with my arbitrary 0.05W. SM6LKM and others have produced WSPR code for a PIC that can have the data changed via a serial port. Regarding producing programmed PICs, providing the user data coded in is no problem, however, I write my code for the particular Xtal used for the timing for each project so each is unique. The SM6LKM / (G4JNT ) method uses GPS / MSF external timing and so makes the code transportable to other projects, however for me that is one step further away from KISS. 73 Eddie G3ZJO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of M0FMT Sent: 08 April 2010 00:04 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Hi Eddie I have mentioned your method of using the 74HC84 chip with two xtals in an earlier Mail. I think I understand that way of generating the WSPR signal but the "magic" is in the PIC program. Have you ever considered offering programed PIC because I would like to try your method. I am guessing the PIC just carries your call, loc and power and is not alterable with out reprogramming the chip? Have you written your rig up anywhere? I saw the 6m experiment article but as far as I could see it was a means of eliminating the PC and soundcard the output being a 1500c/s tone 4 FSK phase shited. Anyway a very interesting practical solution. 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, g3zjo wrote: From: g3zjo Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 23:33 Hi Chris Just a bit more for you to mull over. I don't think anyone has mentioned the MP3 approach where a 2min WSPR data stream is recorded at audio and used to modulate the TX with suitable start stop timing. Then there is my audio WSPR system which I call the XORgan, this generates WSPR at audio at a very stable base frequency derived from the difference between 2 identical xtals, one pulled 1,500Hz the other modulated, using an XOR chip. Then there is Gene Marcus follow on of that idea with the tones generated directly by an audio oscillator, its frequency being varied by WSPR code. Both of these methods need the WSPR to be coded in a PIC. As I understand your application, with VCO facility there is no need for the audio mixing you mention, just use the PIC to modulate the VCO. My WSPR on 503.810kHz uses this method, no GPS clocking just some accurate timing in the programming which has been running now for 2 years, recently I have had to attack the capacitance values due to Xtal ageing, it had gone outside the range of the trimmer. The timing thus needed correction within 24 hours, today, now I have done the mod, I did a reset after 4 days whether it needed it or not. 73 Eddie G3ZJO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Osborn Sent: 07 April 2010 22:41 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Many thanks for all the contributions and suggestions. I have been reading them and trying to understand but I am no 'boffin'. Basically I have a 'decent' PC and appear to be receiving WSPR ok. My rig is home built with a DC receiver and a simple CW type TX with VCO facility. I am not at home with PIC's or programming and was hoping someone would come up with an analogue solution. I know I need to do more 'reading up' but was trying the lazy-man's approach. My initial thoughts were that the PC is giving out a 1500 Hz tone + / - 5 Hz. This is used to generate USB signals from an SSB TX (?) I was hoping to mix these tones with a stable frequency of 1400 Hz (say) ending up with 100 Hz + / - 5 Hz - thence to an F-V converter - gain / level adjusted and thence to the TX VCO input. Ready and awaiting the brickbats. 73 Chris G3XIZ _____ From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wed, 7 April, 2010 21:41:02 Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Hi Group I think we have been here before but this is my contribution:- Do the whole thing with software WSPR - VAC - SDR software - Hardware Tayloe detector in reverse using a Multiplex chip. This may not be the simplest technique taking the Applications involved i.e. writing the software. but it already exists so it is just a matter of integrating them to make a system. The Tayloe detector exists as a kit by Softrock. You do need however to amplify linearly from the detector output up to final o/p power level. I use the reverse for WSPR RX on MF and LF. And have played with the TX side on 30m at about 1Watt O/P. I can demonstrate this method if you are interested Chris, assuming watching paint drying (srri I mean WSPR) is the new attraction...hee. 73 es GL petefmt t@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: M0FMT Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 20:55 Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September last year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you might say from the Horse Mouth) and he said :- On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor wrote: From: Joe Taylor Subject: Re: WSPR To: "M0FMT" Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM Hi Peter, > Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo? No. > If the software doesn't have this facility why not? Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one, that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones. The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode. With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built special-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK capability in hardware. Their keying is typically controlled from a microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in ROM. -- 73, Joe, K1JT 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe wrote: From: Rik Strobbe Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23 hello Chris, Jim, group, an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say from 5MHz (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz. That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TTL IC. I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR audio signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divider ratio. It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no real "DX tests" so. But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the software. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens James Moritz [ james.moritz@btopenworld.com] Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group, What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving WSPR via the PIC might be a bit more difficult... But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500kHz and be used in place of the VCO in your TX. Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you might have to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for homebrew HF WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/10 07:32:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/10 07:32:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6B2.D6D2EA70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Pete<= /font>

 

That’s ri= ght my info is coded on the chip and not written to be easily (externally) recoded, hence, since= I can’t represent 0.0002W using WSPR I am lazy and I stick with my arbitrary= 0.05W.

SM6LKM and othe= rs have produced WSPR code for a PIC that can have the data changed via a serial port. Regarding prod= ucing programmed PICs, providing the user data coded in is no problem, howev= er, I write my code for the particular Xtal used for the timing for each pro= ject so each is unique.

The SM6LKM / (G= 4JNT ) method uses GPS / MSF external timing and so makes the code transportable to other proje= cts, however for me that is one step further away from KISS.<= /p>

 

73

Eddie G3Z= JO

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org] On Behalf Of M= 0FMT
Sent: 08 April 2010 00:= 04
To: rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR= without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner

 

Hi Eddie

I have mentioned your method of using th= e 74HC84 chip with two xtals in an earlier Mail. I think I understand that wa= y of generating the WSPR signal but the "magic" is in the PIC= program. Have you ever considered offering programed PIC because I would like= to try your method. I am guessing the PIC just carries your call, loc and= power and is not alterable with out reprogramming the chip?

Have you written your rig up anywhere?= I saw the 6m experiment article but as far as I could see it was a means of elimi= nating the PC and soundcard the output being a 1500c/s tone 4 FSK phase shi= ted.

Anyway a very interesting practical solu= tion.

73 es GL petefmt

--- On Wed, 7/4/10, g3zjo <g3zjo@npton.plus.com> wrote:


From: g3zjo <g3zjo@npton.plus.com>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 23:33

Hi Chris

 

Just a bit= more for you to mull over.

 

I don̵= 7;t think anyone has mentioned the MP3 approach where a 2min WSPR data stream is recorded at audio= and used to modulate the TX with suitable start stop timing.

 

Then there= is my audio WSPR system which I call the XORgan, this generates WSPR at audio at a very stable bas= e frequency derived from the difference between 2 identical xtals, one= pulled 1,500Hz the other modulated, using an XOR chip.

 

Then there= is Gene Marcus follow on of that idea with the tones generated directly by an audio oscillator,= its frequency being varied by WSPR code.

Both of th= ese methods need the WSPR to be coded in a PIC.

 

As I under= stand your application, with VCO facility there is no need for the audio mixing you mention, just= use the PIC to modulate the VCO.

My WSPR on= 503.810kHz uses this method, no GPS clocking just some accurate timing in the programming which= has been running now for 2 years, recently I have had to attack the capacitan= ce values due to Xtal ageing, it had gone outside the range of the trimmer. Th= e timing thus needed correction within 24 hours, today, now I have done the mod,= I did a reset after 4 days whether it needed it or not.

 

73<= /font>

 

Eddie G3ZJO

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Os= born
Sent: 07 April 2010= 22:41
To: rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: WSPR= without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner

 

Many thanks= for all the contributions and suggestions.
I have been reading them and trying to understand but I am no 'boffi= n'.

Basically I have a 'decent' PC and appear to be receiving WSP= R ok.
My rig is home built with a DC receiver and a simple CW type TX with= VCO facility.

I am not at home with PIC's or programming and was hoping someone wo= uld come
up with an analogue solution.
I know I need to do more 'reading up' but was trying the lazy-man's= approach.

My initial thoughts were that the PC is giving out a 1500 Hz tone += / - 5 Hz.
This is used to generate USB signals from an SSB TX (?)
I was hoping to mix these tones with a stable frequency of 1400 Hz= (say) ending up
with 100 Hz + / - 5 Hz - thence to an F-V converter - gain / level= adjusted and thence
to the TX VCO input.

Ready and awaiting the brickbats.

73 Chris G3XIZ

 

From: M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
To: rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org
Sent: Wed, 7 April,= 2010 21:41:02
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR= without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner

Hi Group 

 

I think we have been here= before but this is my contribution:-

 

Do the whole thing with sof= tware WSPR - VAC - SDR software - Hardware Tayloe detector in reverse using a Multiplex= chip.

This may not be the simples= t technique taking the Applications involved i.e. writing the software. but it already ex= ists so it is just a matter of integrating them to make a system. The Tayl= oe detector exists as a kit by Softrock. You do need however to = amplify linearly from the detector output up to final o/p power level.

 

I use the reverse for WSPR= RX on MF and LF. And have played with the TX side on 30m at about 1Watt O/P.

 

I can demonstrate this meth= od if you are interested Chris, assuming watching paint drying (srri I mean WSPR)= is the new attraction...hee. 

 

73 es GL petefmt



t@yahoo.c= o.uk> wrote:


From: M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner=
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 20:55

Please see below reply from Joe Ta= ylor on this very subject September last year, This is the guy who actually= wrote this application (you might say from the Horse Mouth) and he sai= d :-

 

O= n Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU> wrote:

From: Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSPR
To: "M0FMT" <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM

Hi Peter,

> Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.= e 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo?

No.

> If the software doesn't have this facility why not?

Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approac= hing one, that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuou= s-phase 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones.

The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mo= de.

With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have= built special-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary= 4-tone FSK capability in hardware.  Their keying is typically controll= ed from a  microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) sto= red in ROM.
    -- 73, Joe, K1JT


73 es GL petefmt



--- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Stro= bbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kul= euven.be> wrote:

<= br> From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ?
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23

hello Chris, Jim, group,

an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say fr= om 5MHz (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz.
That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS= or TTL IC.
I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriat= e WSPR audio signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and= divider ratio.
It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no= real "DX tests" so.
But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send th= e software.

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

________________________________________
Van: owner-rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org] namens James Moritz [j= ames.moritz@btopenworld.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ?

Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group,

What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but rec= eiving WSPR
via the PIC might be a bit more difficult...

But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing
up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output= to 500kHz and
be used in place of the VCO in your TX.

Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (yo= u might have
to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for= homebrew HF
WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k.

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU

 

 

No virus found in this incoming mes= sage.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/0= 7/10 07:32:00

 

No virus found in this incom= ing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/= 10 07:32:00

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6B2.D6D2EA70--