Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mi06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mi06.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.131.164]) by air-di01.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDI013-eab84bbd0f74375; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:04:20 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mi06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0A6C438000091; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NzeGy-00008K-Ed for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:03:00 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NzeGx-00008B-8o for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:02:59 +0100 Received: from out1.ip08ir2.opaltelecom.net ([62.24.128.244]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NzeGu-0007NM-QG for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:02:59 +0100 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai8FAIurvEtcGTTr/2dsb2JhbACBP41vhXCGCnG7EoUJBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,165,1270422000"; d="scan'208,217";a="445035812" Received: from unknown (HELO laptopcore2) ([92.25.52.235]) by out1.ip08ir2.opaltelecom.net with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 00:02:49 +0100 From: "g3zjo" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:02:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000001cad6a6$71dacb80$0202a8c0@laptopcore2> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <684841.30158.qm@web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6AE.D39F3380" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039400cdece4bbd0f71614a X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6AE.D39F3380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pete / group =20 I must have been scribing at the same time as you :-) =20 I haven=92t abandoned computers completely for WSPR particularly when TX/RX is required. Where it becomes silly is with a QRP TX when the computer uses far more power than the TX. My 500kHz WSPR, PIC, TX and= PA uses 76mA from a solar panel and that=92s it. =20 73. =20 Eddie G3ZJO =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of M0FMT Sent: 07 April 2010 23:00 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner =20 Hi Andy and group =20 What I am saying is that simplicity in that it's all done in the PC wi= th software already written (no need to reinvent the wheel) no need to program PICs etc. Unless of coarse you want it PCless then there is point to it. The WSPR software exists the Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) exists and a SDR TX software exists. Just down load and run. For the= end user, a no -brainer! The only hardware is the Multiplex chip Quadratur= e detector 90degree phase shift Local oscillator to give a sideband sign= al on the desired frequency to be amplified to final O/P. i.e. Softrock= TX RX. cheap kit! =20 That's what I am trying to suggest. I note that G3ZJO has made a simple phase shift modulator driven with= a PIC for WSPR using a 74HC86 chip.see http://g3zjo-radio.blog.co.uk/2009/10/26/wspr-organ-computerless-wspr-= tx -7249318/ That may also be a good SSB rig less method for 500kc/s but not tried it because the above method I have suggested does not rely= on a PIC programmer which I don't have and I have already built Softrock TXRX and the rest is soldering iron less PC software exercise.=20 =20 Joe Taylor said in his reply to me that what you have suggested is bei= ng done. =20 If you write up a surefire design I for one would like to build it . =20 In the mean time the only surefire method I have made that does not require an SSB rig is the one I described above. i.e make an SDR TXRX and use plug and play software. And its cheap as chips to put together= . =20 I grant you it is not PCless but it is SSB rigless, one out of two........... =20 BTW I agree with your comment ..Why reject a PC out of hand. 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, Andy Talbot wrote: From: Andy Talbot Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 21:53 Not quite sure what you're trying to suggest... =20 There is no 'magic' to a phase continuous oscillator. Any single oscillator whose frequency is controlled by adjusting the frequency determining element will inherently have to be phase continuous. Simp= le examples are a varicap tuned LC or crystal source, or a DDS where changing the increment to the NCO is the tuning element. =20 =20 In the former you may have a problem getting sufficiently close enough to a 1.46Hz shift (actually the value is 12000/8192 =3D 1.46484375Hz). But for a DDS no problem, even with many stages of frequency multiplication. I have only ever used the DDS implementation, but there are many people out there who have built highly sucessful low power WSPR beacons - many based around varicap controlled crystal oscillators controlled from a microcontroller. =20 =20 As mentioned before, JT4 is much the same as WSPR, and I've tested ma= ny successful beacon sources for that, - in fact the 10GHz beacon GB3SCX transmits JT4G using a DDS in a PLL, and controlled to set one of four frequencies from another PIC generating the JT4G symbols. http://www.scrbg.org/JT4_GB3SCX.pdf =20 The only really critical thing about the mode is gettign the symbol timing right. Be just a fraction of a percent out and after the 110 second transmission period, if you have drifted by more than about 20% of the 680ms long symbol period, decoding will suffer. Actual start time of the transmission can vary by a few seconds either way, but symbol timing MUST be better than 0.1%. No big deal for a crystal oscillator, but the PIC code must gets its counters and division ratio= s right! (Certain cheap sound cards cannot manage it though) =20 But, while on the same subject. Why reject a PC out of hand. They= are now so ubiquitous, that old laptops appear at rallies/boot sales/junk fairs and cost next to nothing. Almost anything running Win 98 or later will do for WSPR and WSJT - although you may have to use an external USB headphone dongle if the internal soundcard is too ancient= . (a couple of quid from Ebay) At the recent Bournemouth Sale, I saw Toshiba laptops (135MHz clock running Win 98) identical to the one I use currently 24/7 for the 5MH= z beacon monitoring project, being sold by a trader for a mere =A315 ea= ch. You could probably find a suitable one on a rubbish tip even, fully working. I also picked up a very nice Toshiba lightweight notebook (700 MHz clock) Win XP for =A340 a couple of years ago, and have to= stop buying old laptops as they're just too plentiful now. =20 =20 Andy www.g4jnt.com =20 On 7 April 2010 20:55, M0FMT > wrote: Please see below reply from Joe Taylor on this very subject September last year, This is the guy who actually wrote this application (you might say from the Horse Mouth) and he said :- =20 On Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor wrote: From: Joe Taylor Subject: Re: WSPR To: "M0FMT" > Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM Hi Peter, > Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.e 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo? No. > If the software doesn't have this facility why not? Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approaching one, that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-phase 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones. The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode. With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have built special-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-tone FSK capability in hardware. Their keying is typically controlled from= a microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tones) stored in ROM. -- 73, Joe, K1JT 73 es GL petefmt --- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobbe > wrote: From: Rik Strobbe > Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org " > Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23 hello Chris, Jim, group, an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say from 5MH= z (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz. That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS or TT= L IC. I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate WSPR audio signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and divide= r ratio. It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no real "DX tests" so. But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the software. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ________________________________________ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com ] Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =20 Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group, What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but receiving WSPR via the PIC might be a bit more difficult... But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf is Andy's simple phasing up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to 500k= Hz and be used in place of the VCO in your TX. Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you migh= t have to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for homebrew HF WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU =20 =20 =20 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/= 10 07:32:00 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6AE.D39F3380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Pete / grou= p

 <= /font>

I must have be= en scribing at the same time as you J

 <= /font>

I haven’= t abandoned computers completely for WSPR particularly when TX/RX is required. Where it beco= mes silly is with a QRP TX when the computer uses far more power than the TX. My= 500kHz WSPR, PIC, TX and PA uses 76mA from a solar panel and that’s it.=

 <= /font>

73.

 <= /font>

Eddie= G3ZJO

 <= /font>

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_gro= up@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of M0FMT
Sent: 07 April 2010 23:= 00
To: rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: WSPR= without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner

 

Hi Andy and group

 

What I am saying is that simplicity in= that it's all done in the PC with software already written (no need to reinvent th= e wheel) no need to program PICs etc. Unless of coarse you want it PCless the= n there is point to it. The WSPR software exists the Virtual= Audio Cable (VAC) exists and a SDR TX software exists. Just down load and= run. For the end user, a no -brainer! The only hardware is the Multiplex chip Quadrature detector 90degree phase shift Local oscillator to give a= sideband signal on the desired frequency to be amplified to final O/P.= i.e. Softrock TX RX. cheap kit!

 

That's what I am trying to suggest= .


I note that G3ZJO has made a simple phase shift modulator driven wit= h a PIC for WSPR using a 74HC86 chip.see  ht= tp://g3zjo-radio.blog.co.uk/2009/10/26/wspr-organ-computerless-wspr-tx= -7249318/ That may also be a good SSB rig less method for 500kc/s but not trie= d it because the above method I have suggested does not rely on = ;a PIC programmer which I don't have and I have already built Softrock= TXRX and the rest is soldering iron less PC software exercise. 

 

Joe Taylor said in his reply to me that= what you have suggested is being done.

 

If you write up a surefire design I for= one would like to build it .

 

In the mean time the only surefire meth= od I have made that does not require an SSB rig is the one I described above.= i.e make an SDR TXRX and use plug and play software. And its cheap as chips= to put together.

 

I grant you it is not PCless but it is= SSB rigless, one out of two...........

 

BTW I agree with your comment ..Wh= y reject a PC out of hand.


73 es GL petefmt

--- On Wed, 7/4/10, Andy Talbot= <andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com= > wrote:


From: Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ? FRM Joe Taylor NPwinner To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 21:53

Not quite sure what you're trying to su= ggest...

 

There is no 'magic' to a phase continuo= us oscillator.   Any single oscillator whose frequency is con= trolled by adjusting the frequency determining element will inherently ha= ve to be phase continuous.  Simple examples are a varicap tuned LC or= crystal source, or a DDS where changing the increment to the NCO is the tuni= ng element. 

 

In the former you may have a problem ge= tting sufficiently close enough to a 1.46Hz shift (actually the value is= 12000/8192 =3D 1.46484375Hz).   But for a DDS no problem, even with= many stages of frequency multiplication.   I have only ever used = the DDS implementation, but there are many people out there who have built= highly sucessful low power WSPR beacons - many based around varicap control= led crystal oscillators controlled from a microcontroller.  =

 

As mentioned before,  JT4 is much= the same as WSPR, and I've tested many successful beacon sources for that,= - in fact the 10GHz beacon GB3SCX transmits JT4G using a DDS in a PLL, and con= trolled to set one of four frequencies from another PIC generating the JT4G symbols.  http://www.scrbg.org/JT4_GB3SCX.pdf=

 

The only really critical thing about th= e mode is gettign the symbol timing right.    Be just a fractio= n of a percent out and after the 110 second transmission period, if you hav= e drifted by more than about 20% of the 680ms long symbol period, decoding wil= l suffer.    Actual start time of the transmission can= vary by a few seconds either way, but symbol timing MUST be better than 0.1%.   No big deal for a crystal oscillator, but the PIC= code must gets its counters and division ratios right!   (Certain ch= eap sound cards cannot manage it though)

 

But, while on the same subject. = Why reject a PC out of hand.   They are now so ubiquitous, that old lap= tops appear at rallies/boot sales/junk fairs and cost next to nothing.&nb= sp;  Almost anything running Win 98 or later will do for WSPR and WSJT -= although you may have to use an external USB headphone dongle if the internal= soundcard is too ancient.  (a couple of quid from Ebay)

At the recent Bournemouth Sale, I saw= Toshiba laptops (135MHz clock running Win 98)  identical to the one I= use currently 24/7 for the 5MHz beacon monitoring project, being  s= old by a trader for a mere =A315 each.    You could probably= find a suitable one on a rubbish tip even, fully working.   I als= o picked up a very nice Toshiba lightweight notebook (700 MHz clock) Win XP=  for =A340 a couple of years ago, and have to stop buying old laptops as= they're just too plentiful now.

 

 

On 7 April 2010 20:55, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Please see below reply from Joe Taylo= r on this very subject September last year, This is the guy who actually wro= te this application (you might say from the Horse Mouth) and he said= :-

 

On = Mon, 7/9/09, Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU> wrote:

From: Joe Taylor <joe@Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSPR
To: "M0FMT" <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk= >
Date: Monday, 7 September, 2009, 1:47 PM

Hi Peter,

> Does your Software have a data output that gives a hi lo i.e= 0,1 on the serial port other than the PTT Hi Lo?

No.

> If the software doesn't have this facility why not?

Because there is no standard, nor even anything remotely approachi= ng one, that would permit hard-keying an oscillator to produce continuous-= phase 4-FSK with offset 1.465 Hz between tones.

The WSPR program, as distributed, is essentially a sound card mode= .

With that said, it should be noted that a number of people have bu= ilt special-purpose WSPR transmitters that implement the necessary 4-t= one FSK capability in hardware.  Their keying is typically controlled= from a  microprocessor, with the encoded message (sequence of tone= s) stored in ROM.
    -- 73, Joe, K1JT


73 es GL petefmt



--- On Wed, 7/4/10, Rik Strobb= e <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be><= /b> wrote:


From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Str= obbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Subject: RE: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ?
To: "rsgb_lf_group@bla= cksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org>
Date: Wednesday, 7 April, 2010, 14:23

hello Chris, Jim, group,

an alternative to a transverted would be a divider, let's say from= 5MHz (from a HF tranceiver) to 500kHz.
That would limit the hardware to some resistors an a single CMOS= or TTL IC.
I have written a small apllication that generates the appropriate= WSPR audio signal based on the input frequency, output frequency and di= vider ratio.
It worked fine for some local tests, but due to lack of I did no= real "DX tests" so.
But if anyone wants to try this route I will be happy to send the= software.

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

________________________________________
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org] namens James Moritz [james.moritz@btopenworld.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2010 15:09
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: WSPR without an SSB TRX ?

Dear Chris, Andy, LF Group,

What Andy suggests is fine for generating a WSPR signal, but recei= ving WSPR
via the PIC might be a bit more difficult...

But also at http://www.g4jnt.com/LFUpconv.pdf= is Andy's simple phasing
up-converter, which could be used to convert a PC audio output to= 500kHz and
be used in place of the VCO in your TX.

Trawling through the Forum topics on the WSPRnet.org website (you= might have
to sign up to see all the material) will reveal many designs for= homebrew HF
WSPR beacons that could mostly be adapted to 500k.

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU

 

 

 

No virus found in this inco= ming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2796 - Release Date: 04/07/= 10 07:32:00

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CAD6AE.D39F3380--