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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 00:58:00 +0200
Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1BB1@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de>
Thread-Topic: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ   **UPDATE
Thread-Index: AcrN8S1PY6fYjzFlR9OGAQAfA1r4FAAEbIJ9ACgenCAACUmysA==
References: <MFEJIKCLCMPDFHOKMANAOEOGOEAA.paulc@snet.net>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
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Subject: AW: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ   **UPDATE
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
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Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org


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Hello Paul,=20
=20
Yes, 1500 turns and 1,2m high is good for handling voltages well above 50=
 kV rms and you may get a proper Q. If you can get isolated wire instead=
 of enameled wire, you will get some distance between the turns and thus=
 even more Q and a higher withstand voltage but the coil will be bigger wi=
th the same inductance.
=20
Yes, top wires are the usual way to increase the C.
=20
Ruducing the size of the coil, without choosing a smaller wire, is best re=
ached by increasing the antenna C, as mentioned. Furthermore it is importa=
nt to decrease the voltages! It may sound challenging and imposing to hand=
le with 100kV rms at 8,97kHz but the effort to handle these voltages will=
 take much time and complicates the arrangement without getting the ERP as=
 high as with a high antenna...
=20
So, just start building your coil and show us some impressing photos :-)
=20
73 es gl, Stefan/DK7FC

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo
Gesendet: So 28.03.2010 20:27
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE


Hello Stefan,
=20
Thank you for the response.  I hope to increase the "C" with top wires?
=20
The coil I have calculated is very large as you say.=20
Using one of Reg Edwards programs, it appears that a coil 1.2 meters tall,=
 .6 meters in diameter, using #21 wire, .76 MM dia would result in a 545=
 mHy inductor.
It would take 1500 turns, have a dc res. of 110 ohms and consist of 9300'=
 of wire for a total of 23 lbs of copper.  I chose #21 because of the its=
 larger than the .46 MM you uses and hopefully would yield a higher "Q"
and because  I found a 50 LBs spool in possession already helps also. :>)=
   The predicted "Q" of the inductor is 300.
=20
I have to read more about tophat/wires at 9 KHz, but anything that would=
 reduce the size of the coil would be helpful.
=20
PauLC
W1VLF
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
 -----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behal=
f Of Stefan Sch=E4fer
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:23 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: AW: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE



    Paul, the values you measured seem to be realistic for me. Especially=
 the measured antenna C does not really differ very much between 137kHz an=
d 9 kHz. It is a good value that allows you to dimension your needed L. Th=
e needed L is nearly independent from the earth losses. I generally recomm=
end a variometer part of 1...5% of the fixed L to compensate all effects=
 that influence the antenna C. But think about if it is possible to increa=
se the antenna C instead of building a very huge coil that causes further=
 losses.
    =20
    Good luck and have fun with building up! :-)
    =20
    73, Stefan/DK7FC

________________________________

    Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Ciancio=
lo
    Gesendet: Sa 27.03.2010 22:01
    An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
    Betreff: RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE
   =20
   =20

    Hello Folks,
   =20
    Thank you for all the help with measuring my antenna impedance.
   =20
    Let me explain further what I was using to measure with and then add=
 some updates.
    The homebrew bridge I was using was built as the one in the following=
 link.
    The diagram at the very bottom of the page is the schematic I used.
    http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=3D2285
   =20
    This really my first venture into things LF and I had really no idea=
 of what to expect for numbers
    After posting my results here, and talking to W1VD, he forwarded me a=
 link to Alan and Finbar's bridge experiments here
    http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/aelossbr.htm
   =20
    Basically I duplicated that design, making sure that the transformer=
 had 100 mHy of inductance to work at 10 KHz.
    Sure enough the bridge worked, and balance with my antenna, but would=
 not balance with my antenna simulator load.
   =20
    The simulated load is 2 X 390 ohm .1% resistors in series with a 500=
 pf silver mica.
   =20
    Reading on Alan talks about stray capacitance.
   =20
    "The problem with the usual trifilar wound transformer is that if driv=
en from an unbalanced source the secondary suffers unbalanced strays to gr=
ound. This would mean that if you were to swap the components on the arms=
 of the bridge the balance would be different"
   =20
    With that in mind I built another transformer to balance the drive to=
 the bridge.  After doing this the bridge will now balance with the simula=
ted load and the antenna.
    See the following numbers for results:
   =20
    Measurments were taken 10Khz
    The "R" and "C" "known" side of the bridge were then measure measured
   =20
    Sim load =3D  780 Ohms and  507 PF on  LCR meter
   =20
    Sim load =3D  940 Ohms and  460 pf  on the bridge.
   =20
   =20
    Antenna =3D  1111 Ohms and 330 PF on bridge
   =20
    Antenna also measured at 137 KHz
   =20
    Antenna =3D 85 ohms and 340 pf @137 Khz.
   =20
   =20
    I think these are more in line with what I should be reading????
   =20
    What do you folks think?
   =20
    Thank you to everyone who responded to this post and helping me get st=
arted.
   =20
   =20
    PauL C
    W1VLF
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
   =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
    [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Johan H. Bodin
    Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 4:32 PM
    To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
    Subject: Re: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefan.
   =20
   =20
    Hi Paul,
   =20
    it sounds like your impedance bridge is measuring the absolute impedan=
ce
    (that is Z =3D (R^2 + X^2)^0.5 where R is the real part, resistance,=
 and X
    is the imaginary part, reactance). R is probably a 10 to a few hundred
    ohms, most of it is ground resistance - it can be neglected - the majo=
r
    part of your impedance is the capacitive reactance of the antenna (Xc)=
.
    At 9 kHz, where C =3D 1/(2*Pi*9000*Xc), 70 kOhms means 253pF which is=
 in
    the ballpark for your 170' wire (about 5pF/m).
   =20
    73
    Johan SM6LKM
   =20
    ----
   =20
    Paul A. Cianciolo wrote:
    >
    > Hello All,
    >
    > Below is a quote from the Stefan's web page concerning his latest "D=
reamers Band" DX contact Congratulations again Stefan.
    >>From this information alone is it possible to calculate or know the=
 antenna system impedance.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "100m Vertical wire antenna, coil/antenna voltage was abt 15kV rms,=
 average antenna current about 480mA, giving up to 1,7mW ERP. Applied powe=
r was up to 250W."
    >
    > Pertaining to the coil "Technical and mechanical data: L=3D553mH, Q=
=3D82, R(DC)=3D283 Ohm; 0,4mm diameter enameled copper wire, about 1200 tu=
rns! Average diameter 0,55m, height abt 0,5m. So, about 2000m wire! :-)"
    >
    >
    >
    > I have built a small impedance bridge that operates at 10 KHZ and sh=
ows my sloping 170' wire as 70K Ohms. I can also see approx 500 PF that ca=
n be nulled out using the bridge?
    >
    > Can the 70K value possibly be correct?   (3) 6' ground rods about 6'=
 apart are the ground... plus the electrical ground of the house.
    >
    > I am hoping to attempt a local transmission on 9KHZ
    >
    > Any information would be helpful.
    >
    > Thank you
    >
    > Paul
    >
    > W1VLF
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
   =20
   =20
   =20

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