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Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:00 +0100
Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1BAC@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de>
Thread-Topic: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ   **UPDATE
Thread-Index: AcrN8S1PY6fYjzFlR9OGAQAfA1r4FAAEbIJ9
References: <MFEJIKCLCMPDFHOKMANACENHOEAA.paulc@snet.net>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CACE04.71490DD9"
Subject: AW: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ   **UPDATE
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org


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Paul, the values you measured seem to be realistic for me. Especially the=
 measured antenna C does not really differ very much between 137kHz and 9=
 kHz. It is a good value that allows you to dimension your needed L. The=
 needed L is nearly independent from the earth losses. I generally recomme=
nd a variometer part of 1...5% of the fixed L to compensate all effects th=
at influence the antenna C. But think about if it is possible to increase=
 the antenna C instead of building a very huge coil that causes further lo=
sses.
=20
Good luck and have fun with building up! :-)
=20
73, Stefan/DK7FC

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo
Gesendet: Sa 27.03.2010 22:01
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE



Hello Folks,

Thank you for all the help with measuring my antenna impedance.

Let me explain further what I was using to measure with and then add some=
 updates.
The homebrew bridge I was using was built as the one in the following link=
.
The diagram at the very bottom of the page is the schematic I used.
http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=3D2285

This really my first venture into things LF and I had really no idea of wh=
at to expect for numbers
After posting my results here, and talking to W1VD, he forwarded me a link=
 to Alan and Finbar's bridge experiments here
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/aelossbr.htm

Basically I duplicated that design, making sure that the transformer had=
 100 mHy of inductance to work at 10 KHz.
Sure enough the bridge worked, and balance with my antenna, but would not=
 balance with my antenna simulator load.

The simulated load is 2 X 390 ohm .1% resistors in series with a 500 pf si=
lver mica.

Reading on Alan talks about stray capacitance.

"The problem with the usual trifilar wound transformer is that if driven=
 from an unbalanced source the secondary suffers unbalanced strays to grou=
nd. This would mean that if you were to swap the components on the arms of=
 the bridge the balance would be different"

With that in mind I built another transformer to balance the drive to the=
 bridge.  After doing this the bridge will now balance with the simulated=
 load and the antenna.
See the following numbers for results:

Measurments were taken 10Khz
The "R" and "C" "known" side of the bridge were then measure measured

Sim load =3D  780 Ohms and  507 PF on  LCR meter

Sim load =3D  940 Ohms and  460 pf  on the bridge.


Antenna =3D  1111 Ohms and 330 PF on bridge

Antenna also measured at 137 KHz

Antenna =3D 85 ohms and 340 pf @137 Khz.


I think these are more in line with what I should be reading????

What do you folks think?

Thank you to everyone who responded to this post and helping me get starte=
d.


PauL C
W1VLF












-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Johan H. Bodin
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 4:32 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefan.


Hi Paul,

it sounds like your impedance bridge is measuring the absolute impedance
(that is Z =3D (R^2 + X^2)^0.5 where R is the real part, resistance, and=
 X
is the imaginary part, reactance). R is probably a 10 to a few hundred
ohms, most of it is ground resistance - it can be neglected - the major
part of your impedance is the capacitive reactance of the antenna (Xc).
At 9 kHz, where C =3D 1/(2*Pi*9000*Xc), 70 kOhms means 253pF which is in
the ballpark for your 170' wire (about 5pF/m).

73
Johan SM6LKM

----

Paul A. Cianciolo wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> Below is a quote from the Stefan's web page concerning his latest "Dream=
ers Band" DX contact Congratulations again Stefan.
>>From this information alone is it possible to calculate or know the ante=
nna system impedance.
>
>
>
>
> "100m Vertical wire antenna, coil/antenna voltage was abt 15kV rms, aver=
age antenna current about 480mA, giving up to 1,7mW ERP. Applied power was=
 up to 250W."
>
> Pertaining to the coil "Technical and mechanical data: L=3D553mH, Q=3D82=
, R(DC)=3D283 Ohm; 0,4mm diameter enameled copper wire, about 1200 turns!=
 Average diameter 0,55m, height abt 0,5m. So, about 2000m wire! :-)"
>
>
>
> I have built a small impedance bridge that operates at 10 KHZ and shows=
 my sloping 170' wire as 70K Ohms. I can also see approx 500 PF that can=
 be nulled out using the bridge?
>
> Can the 70K value possibly be correct?   (3) 6' ground rods about 6' apa=
rt are the ground... plus the electrical ground of the house.
>
> I am hoping to attempt a local transmission on 9KHZ
>
> Any information would be helpful.
>
> Thank you
>
> Paul
>
> W1VLF
>
>
>
>
>




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