Return-Path: Received: from mtain-da08.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-da08.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.80]) by air-mc02.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMC024-a8d64bad22663; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:08:54 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-da08.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id C98F2380001E1; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NvGko-0008N5-Ff for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:07:42 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NvGko-0008Mw-01 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:07:42 +0000 Received: from lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.156.232]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NvGkk-00010C-MA for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:07:41 +0000 Received: from FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de (File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.212.129]) by lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/HRZ/PMX) with SMTP id o2QL7aGK021022 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:07:37 +0100 (envelope-from schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de) by FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de with AVK MailGateway; for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:07:36 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:07:36 +0100 Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B97@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B97@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Thread-Topic: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefan. Thread-Index: AcrNFKPUxj0MGIZLSheUksuExp1zUAADs1HK References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= To: X-AVK-Virus-Check: AVB 19.844;26.03.2010 X-PMX-TU: seen v0.99a by 5.5.9.388399, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.3.26.205418 X-PMX-SPAMCHECK: outgoing mail X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CACD28.5C5CB107" Subject: LF: AW: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefan. X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/56743 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40504bad226430c4 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) ------_=_NextPart_001_01CACD28.5C5CB107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Paul,=20 =20 Thank you! And nice that you are also active at the TX front. This is nece= ssary to keep the VLF ham interest alive ;-) =20 In my notes at qrz.com there are some average values, some estimated value= s and some measured values. Since the kite and thus it's angle is moving,= the C and thus the resonance is slightly changing. Thus, the antenna curr= ent is changing since the L is fixed and the output power is maximum at re= sonance... With the power and antenna current you can immediately calculat= e the overall losses and if you know the losses of the coil, you know the= earth (and other) losses. The radation resistance can really be neglected= ;-) =20 For the antenna wire you can assume abt 6pF per meter. My antenna has 580p= F and is 100m, so it seems to be a good estimate. I do not know the arrangement of your measuring bridge but if it is like= that, described by Alan/G3NYK and Finbar/EI0CF, you will get a minimum ou= tput signal when choosing C =3D C(antenna) and R =3D R(earth+surroundings)= . If your Z is 70kOhm at 9kHz, you will need about 250pF. I do not know what " ' " means in meters but if your wire is about (250/6)= meters long, it seems to be reasonably correct. The house earth can be an important part of your VLF earth. On my hill, th= ere is not such an earth and i have about 450 Ohm earth losses. But for th= at, you may have higher surrounding losses by houses and trees. =20 What i recommend you, is increasing your antenna capacitance! 250pF is not= much. Sure, it is a good starting point but you will need abt 1,2H for re= sonance. This will be an very big coil with much losses. The coil losses= may be higher than the earth losses. The limiting factor will not be the= output power that can be generated but rather the voltage, the wire and= insulators can withstand! 10 kV is nothing here! Spend some time to incre= ase the wire length or place some wires in parallel (distance >1m) as high= as possible and as far as possible to reduce the needed L. It is the same= game as on LF but the losses and voltages are much higher. But there are= some advantages as we saw in the last weeks (e.g. propagation and possibl= e receivers). =20 Anyway, you will reach your personal records and it is fascinating to impr= ove the system all the time. =20 I wish you good luck and hope i have helped you. Just ask if you have furt= her questions :-) =20 73, Stefan/DK7FC ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo Gesendet: Fr 26.03.2010 19:38 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefan. Hello All, Below is a quote from the Stefan's web page concerning his latest "Dreamer= s Band" DX contact Congratulations again Stefan. >From this information alone is it possible to calculate or know the antenn= a system impedance. "100m Vertical wire antenna, coil/antenna voltage was abt 15kV rms, averag= e antenna current about 480mA, giving up to 1,7mW ERP. Applied power was= up to 250W." Pertaining to the coil "Technical and mechanical data: L=3D553mH, Q=3D82,= R(DC)=3D283 Ohm; 0,4mm diameter enameled copper wire, about 1200 turns!= Average diameter 0,55m, height abt 0,5m. So, about 2000m wire! :-)" I have built a small impedance bridge that operates at 10 KHZ and shows my= sloping 170' wire as 70K Ohms. I can also see approx 500 PF that can be= nulled out using the bridge? Can the 70K value possibly be correct? (3) 6' ground rods about 6' apart= are the ground... plus the electrical ground of the house. I am hoping to attempt a local transmission on 9KHZ Any information would be helpful. 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