Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mj11.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mj11.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.164.95]) by air-dd07.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDD074-86af4b7f0d0a339; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:13:30 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mj11.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 8E291380000B0; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Nib5N-0007C8-Hf for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:12:33 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Nib5M-0007Bz-OQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:12:32 +0000 Received: from blu0-omc1-s9.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.20]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nib5L-0003Fh-31 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:12:32 +0000 Received: from BLU146-W33 ([65.55.116.9]) by blu0-omc1-s9.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:12:24 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [216.137.223.157] From: Laurence KL1X To: Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:12:23 -0900 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <91FFB5D65F3547FFA086D396DBFAEFA7@White> References: ,<91FFB5D65F3547FFA086D396DBFAEFA7@White> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2010 22:12:24.0154 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D1993A0:01CAB1B0] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_535ae159-68ea-414e-b9fe-a9c15560a8ad_" Subject: RE: LF: Loran A and C X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039400c89b64b7f0d08798a X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --_535ae159-68ea-414e-b9fe-a9c15560a8ad_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Markus - great stuff- I am using the k9ay and had nulled out of one= the chains to get the walking effects - unfortunately I dont have the sdr= up here in Alaska (its in Oklahoma) so cant do a wideband but Ill do a= series of recordings with different headings/amp equalisation and see wha= t comes out - It certainly was a strange "160" sound... I had increased th= e perimeter of the k9ay on just one loop to improve my 137 khz rx - so was= interested to see the affect - this is a very old D600 with the normal so= undcard offsets -=20 =20 Im using a L400 on 137 here and at the moment cant get the performance I= want; I maybuild another PA0RDT which does somewhat better in this locati= on =20 =20 I seem to be suffering with "ground current noise" - whereby the main, 2= phase ground return earth rods are probably close to my radio earth rods= location and Im getting some form of circulating and noise coming up my= earth connection - one of the few times where local earthing is actually= deterioating and Im just earthing at the antennae end - Ill try shoving= some rods up this end of the house, far from the "mains incomer" and see= what happens. =20 42F and a beautiful day here - sunshine and mountains, but still very deep= wet snow by the antennae.... =20 Laurence KL 1 X Wasilla AK BP51IP =20 From: markusvester@aol.com To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org CC: peter.martinez@btinternet.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:34:58 +0100 Subject: Re: LF: Loran A and C Dear Laurence, =20 good to read you're back in AK... =20 Your observation is interesting. In your region, there should now be two= chains left on air. One is the Canadian West Coast chain on GRI 5990, whi= ch is still supported by US stations, including your nearest one Shoal Cov= e (5990 X). The other is the Russian-American GRI 5980, which should be su= pported by Attu (5980 W). The slow phasing effect is caused by pulsegroups= of these very similar rates, walking through one another in time. =20 The attached screenshots are the results of feeding your wav to SpecLab's= time domain scope. Using 64 averages on 5990, AM-demodulated pulsegroups= from all stations from the West Canadian chain are visible. The timescale= appears a bit too long because the actual samplerate was close to 22.200= kHz, rather than 22.050 as assumed by SpecLab. When going to 5980, we can= see only a single group of 6 pulses. This is an unusual format for Loran-= C, probably indicating an error condition by "blinking" the first two of= the eight pulses. One possible reason for this might be the Russian maste= r being down. =20 It would be interesting to look at an SSB recording (eg. 98.25 kHz USB).= This could reveal phase coding within the pulsegroups, and possibly allow= verification of the blinking secondary. =20 Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 From: Laurence KL1X=20 Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 4:42 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Loran A and C =20 Being of a certain age I oft recall the musical phasing noises of Loran= on 160m and kind of missed the musical sounds they made as sky waves did= their thing. With the advent of the closedown of most of the American 100= khz chains save those serving Canadian and Russian chains I took a listen= from here on my newly erected larger (maybe 75m) permeter E/W LF loop and= phased out one signal and was left with a slowly phasing noise very simil= ar to that heard on 160m - I dont recall hearing it before but of course= a lot of the chains/half rate are off so.... Now whether this is just du= e to the rather unstable conditions today up here - a lot of iono smearing= seen on HF but anyway heres the link of what it sounded like from here in= Wasilla AK =3D Its a 2Mb file beware best phase noise towards the end... =20 Laurence KL1X "Palinville" Wasilla Alaska BP51 Eye Pee We2 XP Q =20 http://kl1x.com/loranalaska.wav =20 ps the large loop is to improve my s/n on 137 and 500 and it seems pretty= good - Ive also been running a CW beacon around 506.000 Khz this evening= but low power as Im playing with the matching - Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now= . =3D =20 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/=3D --_535ae159-68ea-414e-b9fe-a9c15560a8ad_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Markus - great stuff- I am using the k9ay and had nulled out= of one the chains to get the walking effects - unfortunately I dont&= nbsp;have the sdr up here in Alaska (its in Oklahoma) so cant do= a wideband but Ill do  a series of recordings with different he= adings/amp equalisation and see what comes out - It certainly was a= strange "160" sound... I had increased the perimeter of the k9ay on = just one loop to improve my 137 khz rx - so was interested to see the affe= ct - this is a very old D600 with the normal soundcard offsets -
 
Im using a L400 on 137 here and at the moment cant get the performanc= e I want; I maybuild another PA0RDT which does somewhat better in this loc= ation
 
 
 I seem to be suffering with "ground current noise" - whereby the mai= n, 2 phase ground return earth rods are probably close to my rad= io earth rods location and Im getting some form of circulating and noise= coming up my earth connection - one of the few times where local ear= thing is actually deterioating and Im just earthing at the antennae= end  - Ill try shoving some rods up this end of the house, far= from the "mains incomer" and see what happens.
 
42F and a beautiful day here - sunshine and mountains, but still very= deep wet snow by the antennae....
 
Laurence KL 1 X Wasilla AK BP51IP
 
From: markusvester@aol.com
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
CC: pete= r.martinez@btinternet.com
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:34:58 +0100
Subj= ect: Re: LF: Loran A and C

Dear Laurence,
 
good to read you're back in AK...
 
Your observation is interesting. In your regi= on, there should now be two chains left on air. One is the= Canadian West Coast chain on GRI 5990, which is still supported by US sta= tions, including your nearest one Shoal Cove (5990 X). The other= is the Russian-American GRI 5980, which should be supporte= d by Attu (5980 W). The slow phasing effect is caused by pu= lsegroups of these very similar rates, walking through one another in= time.
 
The attached screenshots are the results of f= eeding your wav to SpecLab's time domain scope. Using 64 average= s on 5990, AM-demodulated pulsegroups from all stations from the West Cana= dian chain are visible. The timescale appears a bit too long because = the actual samplerate was close to 22.200 kHz, rather than&= nbsp;22.050 as assumed by SpecLab. When going to 5980, we can see onl= y a single group of 6 pulses. This is an unusual format for Loran-C, proba= bly indicating an error condition by "blinking" the first two of the eight= pulses. One possible reason for this might be the Russian master bei= ng down.
 
It would be interesting to look at an SSB rec= ording (eg. 98.25 kHz USB). This could reveal phase coding= within the pulsegroups, and possibly allow verification of the blink= ing secondary.
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
<= FONT face=3DArial>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: LF: Loran A and C

&nb= sp;
Being of a certain age  I oft recall the musical phasing noise= s of Loran on 160m and kind of missed the musical sounds they made as sky= waves did their thing. With the advent of the closedown of most of the Am= erican 100 khz chains save those serving Canadian and Russian chains I too= k a listen from here on my newly erected larger (maybe 75m) permeter E/W= LF loop and phased out one signal and was left with a slowly phasing nois= e very similar to that heard on 160m - I dont recall hearing it before but= of course  a lot of the chains/half rate are off so.... Now whe= ther this is just due to the rather unstable conditions today up here - a= lot of iono smearing seen on HF but anyway heres the link of what it soun= ded like from here in Wasilla AK =3D  Its a 2Mb file beware best phas= e noise towards the end...
 
Laurence KL1X  "Palinville"= Wasilla Alaska BP51 Eye Pee
We2 XP Q
 
http://kl1x.com/loranalaska.wav
 
p= s the large loop is to improve my s/n on 137 and 500 and it seems pretty= good - Ive also been running a CW beacon around 506.000 Khz this eve= ning but low power as Im playing with the matching -

Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. =3D =
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email servi= ce. Get it now. =3D --_535ae159-68ea-414e-b9fe-a9c15560a8ad_--