Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dd11.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dd11.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.151]) by air-de05.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDE052-5eb34b86b6a91ee; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:43:06 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dd11.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0C3553800005D; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:43:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Nkhie-0006Ph-IK for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:41:48 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Nkhid-0006PY-L3 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:41:47 +0000 Received: from web28104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.182.124]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkhid-0007IX-Bi for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:41:47 +0000 Received: (qmail 11036 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Feb 2010 17:41:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1267119700; bh=grrxCmepx185+H5q/DKLa6b9bakhPRwHHz/AvCsgjhU=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=3ogkj4AkK5KGjpmByUULyoNULThoQhmfsTZm37wCy/HGmQlKQlrX9prmg+Rx90XZdCxWkJZdkUdf5A0wuNU12kKP+rWH2OgseG/IrpxbTcdsW0poMN1ldxCb+gHnoEjv6h3bFvRd7gYxewwNplf09n8bk8vknZYPER4p6PFbNbw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mVhsp1HmpI4EIeJCNwFLy/ZbJcEvVHmcUXXqyfmeh/iLFX1iFXheWouha7Fkp1sq0gfeX2/3uOp5zSM5ECHbGKoRJ1pCl1/nhXJv/PpcS51MPuaK51Df3gAofFK/2THuRjO7LeVN1IqnxdFqK2Q572ZiOb2xA9SDO1NeOCvqwgc=; Message-ID: <970432.10413.qm@web28104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: X1Dw4KwVM1lGn66FxOlrDZWEc4B55tN3IMx_Rxd1qyggQC7.qHj.YECIn.q0Htma2teMaVunAxoTRpsoHLBQn2ZKjz8Nz7JkaLZGqBub374quKkhfji9UBaG7CXbKhEtbfCXBhR6lPHZwVx4q5FJWL7l07mnHIjDdBYVWx7ZLpRPaX5xzRvfHyB4qWGst3L7WE9qZqowZPuNVprtgPHNk_AKREQOnbUVtz9qtrwbywBed0Y6TsK5Am.P5eOdOOCteGyFaaVsDy6NccnG1XWOzEX4 Received: from [81.129.13.50] by web28104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:41:40 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.2.12 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:41:40 -0800 (PST) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <9afca2641002250919y7bdb25ebq8b913bb7d210e488@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1458950515-1267119700=:10413" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,HTML_40_50, HTML_COMMENT_8BITS,HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_BALANCE_TABLE,WEIRD_QUOTING autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/55503 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d234.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40974b86b6a7041d X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 --0-1458950515-1267119700=:10413 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well done Roger =C2=A0 What happens with hard of hearing audio induction loops, they are every wh= ere nowadays? =C2=A0 Does this mean if we put a an OFW305 they will issue us with an NOV? =C2=A0 I am typing mine now! =C2=A0 Thanks to G4JNT previously=C2=A0and Good Work Roger!! 73 es GL petefmt --- On Thu, 25/2/10, Roger Lapthorn wrote: From: Roger Lapthorn Subject: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Thursday, 25 February, 2010, 17:19 People may be interested in the reply from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM received= today. I asked him what OFCOM's view would be.=20 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rod Wilkinson Date: 25 February 2010 15:20 Subject: RE: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? To: Roger Lapthorn Hello Roger, Well, quicker than I thought we=E2=80=99d be I have some info for you rega= rding the possibility of operating on 9kHz. Apparently Ofcoms=E2=80=99 Spectrum Management Team were approached back= in 2006 by Colin Thomas G3PSM in his role as RSGB Spectrum Director. We= understood at that time there was some interest in 9kHz, especially from= Andy Talbot, G4JNT. However nothing came of it on that occasion. That has though allowed a head start this time and my colleagues in the Sp= ectrum Team see no reason why Amateur operation/experimentation can not ta= ke place on 9kHz. They state that ITU Radio Regs indicate that there is no= allocation for frequencies below 9 kHz. However in the UK, a licence woul= d be required as there is no lower frequency limit for wireless telegraphy= under the WT Act 2006. This would be in the form of a Notice of Variation= for an existing licensee and will be awarded much on the same lines as fo= r operating on 501-504kHz. Also any operation will be subject to a non int= erference basis to other active facilities and systems using that part of= the spectrum. We will need to revisit the likes of the Met Office who wer= e approached during the original enquires to confirm that they remain cont= ent with the agreed arrangements.=C2=A0 All this, will of course, need to= be done prior to the NoV being granted. So it does seem a possibility and if you and any others wish to proceed pl= ease complete an application from for a Special Research Permit available= at: www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/amateur/applications/ofw= 306.pdf Please provide as much detail as possible and send it to me and I will lia= ise with appropriate colleagues. I hope that helps. Vy 73 Rod Rod Wilkinson OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio 020 7783 4488 (direct line) Rod.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk =C2=A0 Ofcom Riverside House 2a Southwark Bridge Road London SE1 9HA 020 7981 3000 www.ofcom.org.uk =C2=A0 Have you changed your address recently?=20 Update your details on the Ofcom Amateur and Ships Licensing Service=20 =C2=A0 http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Roger Lapthorn [mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com]=20 Sent: 23 February 2010 10:33 AM To: Rod Wilkinson Subject: Re: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? =C2=A0 Many thanks Rod.=20 I fully understand, and would expect, some delay in any response from OFCO= M regarding operation below 9kHz. 73s Roger G3XBM On 23 February 2010 08:23, Rod Wilkinson wrot= e: Hello Roger, =C2=A0 Many thanks for your very interesting mail. =C2=A0 To ensure that I obtain the correct answer regarding operating below 9kHz= I will need to take advice from Ofcoms=E2=80=99 spectrum management team= and possibly the lawyers too.=20 =C2=A0 So please accept this as a holding reply and I will get back to you as soo= n as possible. =C2=A0But be aware please that it may run into weeks rather= than days. =C2=A0 Vy 73=20 =C2=A0 Rod PS =C2=A0sincere congratulations on exceed the 1000km mark on 500kHz! =C2=A0 Rod Wilkinson OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio 020 7783 4488 (direct line) Rod.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk =C2=A0 Ofcom Riverside House 2a Southwark Bridge Road London SE1 9HA 020 7981 3000 www.ofcom.org.uk =C2=A0 Have you changed your address recently?=20 Update your details on the Ofcom Amateur and Ships Licensing Service=20 =C2=A0 http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Roger Lapthorn [mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com]=20 Sent: 22 February 2010 10:43 PM To: Rod Wilkinson Subject: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? =C2=A0 Dear Rod, On the RSGB's LF reflector, there has been some discussion in the last few= days about experimentation at frequencies below 9kHz. Many years ago (aro= und 1970) I held a couple of Test and Development licences (G9BGU and G9BI= B) for such experiments and I wrote up the results in Radio Communications= magazine in 1975. It's a fascinating part of the spectrum to explore. In some countries the approval authorities have simply said that below 9kH= z is not allocated by the ITU and therefore they have no issues with amate= urs operating experimentally in this part of the spectrum. As far as I am= aware, the only use for frequencies below 9kHz is for sferic monitoring,= VLF emissions research (whistler reception, etc), slow data rate signalli= ng to submerged submarines (although I believe this has now been replaced= by other methods) and some slow data rate FSK modulation of the mains pow= er grid system. I cannot imagine amateur operation being a credible interf= erence threat to any of these. At such frequencies, any "antenna" erected by a radio amateur would, in a= traditional sense, would be incredibly inefficient and far field radiatio= n immeasurably low. Therefore communication would, for all intents and pur= poses, only be possible by conduction currents through earth or sea (so ca= lled "earth mode") or induction and not by radiation in a true radio sense= . Attenuation rates are therefore much higher and potential range very lim= ited. I think some in the amateur radio community are interested in experi= menting with very weak signal modes to "push the envelope" on range at the= se basement frequencies. There is no doubt that modes like QRSS30, QRSS60= or WSPR would allow greater ranges to be spanned than traditional modulat= ion modes like normal speed CW, albeit not that far even so (kilometres at= best rather than hundreds of kilometres). So, I wonder what OFCOM's view would be. Would a permit be needed at all?= If yes, would OFCOM issue Special Research Permits (NoVs) on a case-by-ca= se basis as at 500kHz?=C2=A0=20 Kind regards Roger Lapthorn=C2=A0 G3XBM=C2=A0 (500kHz NoV holder) --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM =C2=A0 =C2=A0GQRP 1678 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ISWL G11088 **************************************************************************= **************************************** For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use= of the addressee only. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of= the message and delete it from your system. This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments= at your own risk. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and= do not represent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated= otherwise. **************************************************************************= **************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email=20 ______________________________________________________________________ --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM =C2=A0 =C2=A0GQRP 1678 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ISWL G11088 **************************************************************************= **************************************** For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use= of the addressee only. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of= the message and delete it from your system. This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments= at your own risk. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and= do not represent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated= otherwise. **************************************************************************= **************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email=20 ______________________________________________________________________ --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM =C2=A0 =C2=A0GQRP 1678 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ISWL G11088 =20 --0-1458950515-1267119700=:10413 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0-1993944366-1267119700=:10413" --0-1993944366-1267119700=:10413 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well done Roger
 
What happens with hard of hearing audio induction loops, they are eve= ry where nowadays?
 
Does this mean if we put a an OFW305 they will issue us with an NOV?<= /DIV>
 
I am typing mine now!
 
Thanks to G4JNT previously and Good Work Roger!!

73 es GL= petefmt

--- On Thu, 25/2/10, Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthor= n@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.c= om>
Subject: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation be= low 9kHz?
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Date: Thursday, 25 Februa= ry, 2010, 17:19

People may be interested in the reply from Rod Wil= kinson at OFCOM received today. I asked him what OFCOM's view would be.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:= Rod Wilkinson <Rod.Wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk>
Date: 25 February 201= 0 15:20
Subject: RE: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below= 9kHz?
To: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>= ;


Hello Roger,

Well, quicker than I= thought we=E2=80=99d be I have some info for you regarding the possibilit= y of operating on 9kHz.

Apparently Ofcoms=E2= =80=99 Spectrum Management Team were approached back in 2006 by Colin Thom= as G3PSM in his role as RSGB Spectrum Director. We understood at that time= there was some interest in 9kHz, especially from Andy Talbot, G4JNT. Howe= ver nothing came of it on that occasion.

That has though allow= ed a head start this time and my colleagues in the Spectrum Team see no re= ason why Amateur operation/experimentation can not take place on 9kHz. The= y state that ITU Radio Regs indicat= e that there is no allocation for frequencies below 9 kHz. However in the= UK, a licence would be required as there is no lower frequency limit for= wireless telegraphy under the WT Act 2006. This would be in the form of a Notice of Variation for an existin= g licensee and will be awarded much on the same lines as for operating on= 501-504kHz. Also any operation will be subject to a non interference basi= s to other active facilities and systems using that part of the spectrum.= We will need to revisit the likes of the Met Office who were approached= during the original enquires to confirm that they remain content with the= agreed arrangements.  All this, will of course, need to be done prior to th= e NoV being granted.

So it does seem a pos= sibility and if you and any others wish to proceed please complete an appl= ication from for a Special Research Permit available at:

www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licen= sing/classes/amateur/applications/ofw306.pdf

Please provide as muc= h detail as possible and send it to me and I will liaise with appropriate= colleagues.

I hope that helps.

Vy 73

Rod

Rod= WilkinsonOLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio

020 7783 4488 (direct line)

Rod.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk

O= fcom

Riverside House

2a Southwark Bridge Road

London SE1 9HA

020 7981 3000

www.ofcom.org= .uk

 <= /SPAN>

Have you changed = your address recently?

Update your details on the Ofcom= Amat= eur and Ships Li= censing Service

 =

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/<= SPAN style=3D"COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">

 =

From:= Roger Lapthorn [m= ailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com]
Sent: 23 February= 2010 10:33 AM
To: Rod Wilkinson
Subject: Re: Special= Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz?

 

Many thanks Rod.
I fully understand, and would expect, some delay in any response from OF= COM regarding operation below 9kHz.

73s
Roger G3XBM

On 23 February 2010 08:23, Rod Wilkinson <Rod.Wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk> wrote:

Rod= Wilkinson

OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio

020 7783 4488 (direct line)

Rod.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk

O= fcom

Riverside House

2a Southwark Bridge Road

London SE1 9HA

020 7981 3000

www.ofcom.org= .uk

 <= /SPAN>

Have you changed = your address recently?

Update your details on the Ofcom= Amat= eur and Ships Li= censing Service

 =

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/<= SPAN style=3D"COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">

 =

From:= Roger Lapthorn [m= ailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 February= 2010 10:43 PM
To: Rod Wilkinson
Subject: Special Perm= its for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz?

 

Dear Rod,

On the RSGB's LF reflector, there ha= s been some discussion in the last few days about experimentation at frequ= encies below 9kHz. Many years ago (around 1970) I held a couple of Test an= d Development licences (G9BGU and G9BIB) for such experiments and I wrote= up the results in Radio Communications magazine in 1975. It's a fascinati= ng part of the spectrum to explore.

In some countries the approval= authorities have simply said that below 9kHz is not allocated by the ITU= and therefore they have no issues with amateurs operating experimentally= in this part of the spectrum. As far as I am aware, the only use for freq= uencies below 9kHz is for sferic monitoring, VLF emissions research (whist= ler reception, etc), slow data rate signalling to submerged submarines (al= though I believe this has now been replaced by other methods) and some slo= w data rate FSK modulation of the mains power grid system. I cannot imagin= e amateur operation being a credible interference threat to any of these.

At= such frequencies, any "antenna" erected by a radio amateur would, in a tr= aditional sense, would be incredibly inefficient and far field radiation= immeasurably low. Therefore communication would, for all intents and purp= oses, only be possible by conduction currents through earth or sea (so cal= led "earth mode") or induction and not by radiation in a true radio sense.= Attenuation rates are therefore much higher and potential range very limi= ted. I think some in the amateur radio community are interested in experim= enting with very weak signal modes to "push the envelope" on range at thes= e basement frequencies. There is no doubt that modes like QRSS30, QRSS60= or WSPR would allow greater ranges to be spanned than traditional modulat= ion modes like normal speed CW, albeit not that far even so (kilometres at= best rather than hundreds of kilometres).

So, I wonder what OFCOM'= s view would be. Would a permit be needed at all? If yes, would OFCOM issue Spec= ial Research Permits (NoVs) on a case-by-case basis as at 500kHz? 
Kind regards

Roger Lapthorn  G3XBM  (500kHz NoV hol= der)

--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM    GQRP= 1678      ISWL G11088


****= **************************************************************************= ************************************
For more information visit www.ofcom.org= .uk

This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intend= ed for the use of the addressee only.

If you have received this ema= il in error please notify the originator of the message and delete it from= your system.

This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you= open any attachments at your own risk.

Any views expressed in this= message are those of the individual sender and do not represent the views= or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated otherwise.
***********************************************************= *******************************************************

____= __________________________________________________________________
This= email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For= more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
= ______________________________________________________________________




--

http://g3xbm-qrp.b= logspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/= G3XBM
G3XBM    GQRP 1678      ISWL G11088<= /DIV>


*************= **************************************************************************= ***************************
For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk
This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for th= e use of the addressee only.

If you have received this email in err= or please notify the originator of the message and delete it from your sys= tem.

This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any= attachments at your own risk.

Any views expressed in this message= are those of the individual sender and do not represent the views or opin= ions of Ofcom unless expressly stated otherwise.
***********************************************************= *******************************************************

____= __________________________________________________________________
This= email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For= more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
= ______________________________________________________________________
=



--

http://g3xbm-qr= p.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/u= ser/G3XBM
G3XBM    GQRP 1678      ISWL G11088

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