Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.22]) by air-df01.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDF014-5ee54b8875921a8; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:29:54 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 14E6C380000A7; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NlBTm-0002jw-D5 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:28:26 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NlBTl-0002jn-I2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:28:25 +0000 Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.92.144]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NlBTj-0001Oi-0X for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:28:25 +0000 Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 14so126893qwa.16 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:28:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=R958FkPhsyHjlX26zROSOk194f4+DAFR1XReySJ2fKE=; b=hkeAUArWC/f7EDMvVHzzl1cM9GwrvrZKk+aN2orTi3GMI/zHD6s6unMOQFa8EEXtGz zwC4pEOhg3c7XmxJdHzAnX948yX2RrKMRpKFE0yIEIw8RjhCoegz8byoomNSFLZG01bt MB0n9B7SEb2tcy7sa4yB5ZFqFMTUPJ2aJnz8k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=vp16xoOuG1MPRaWYcPAF6ZoG40daKqDzmIY3+k//b6bGi7ZzBGnuMMoBxhoWDaD+V3 ytDC94s+aG7XPXlkN2ieE32L0TUdoHj4vYeLZsaFfhPebmq65o8WVAa2v7IAGMQ2/gz5 ly6nsA8h31QNLMLzL0moq7F4XlvRZaMuIXYck= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.48.15 with SMTP id p15mr723004qaf.198.1267234100281; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:28:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <815590.4347.qm@web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <815590.4347.qm@web28107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:28:20 -0500 Message-ID: <57a24ca71002261728s1be02142h83d7b0d8931e540@mail.gmail.com> From: Warren Ziegler To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126 Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09ff794096501f604808aee45 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE, HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m233.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60164b8875900d61 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --00c09ff794096501f604808aee45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Pete, Yes I guess I engaged in a bit of hyperbole when I suggested that 9kHz won't cross the garden wall, but not by much. If you reckon that the world record is 10km for an amateur and that was to receive a very faint ARGO trace then for a signal to be audible it must be considerably closer. You comment on politics reminds of the old joke: Q. Do you know the difference between capitalism and communism? A. In capitalism its dog eat dog; in communism its the other way 'round ! -- 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:46 PM, M0FMT wrote: > > Hi Warren >> >> Well I can tell you right now that the garden wall is not the limit by any >> means unless you live on John Wayne's Ranch. >> Your New President is trying to create jobs over there? He wants to take a >> leaf out of our book we've been doing it for years... joking aside....... I >> am not expecting DX but to have a communication path that covers the local >> LF Amateur community on VLF would be rather Cool I think. From there it may >> be a long road that I for one may not travel but at the moment there is >> enough enthusiasm locally to try out a few ideas many have come from this >> debate on the LF reflector. The near field signal is quite readable at about >> 1/2 km from a very low power TX using a whip on RX during a quick wiz up the >> road in the car. Must key this thing my ears are ringing with this >> continuous beat note running all the time. >> >> 73 es GL petefmt >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Warren Ziegler" >> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:31 PM >> To: >> > >> Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below >> 9kHz? >> >> >>> Asking Ofcom for a license or Nov to generate a signal that will not >>> extend past your own garden seems like a lot of trouble for >>> nothing.... >>> >>> -- >>> 73 Warren K2ORS >>> WD2XGJ >>> WD2XSH/23 >>> WE2XEB/2 >>> WE2XGR/1 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jacek Lipkowski > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Roger Lapthorn wrote: >>>> >>>> People may be interested in the reply from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM >>>>> received >>>>> today. I asked him what OFCOM's view would be. >>>>> >>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>>> >>>>> They state that ITU Radio Regs indicate that there is no allocation for >>>>> frequencies below 9 kHz. However in the UK, a licence would be required >>>>> as >>>>> there is no lower frequency limit for wireless telegraphy under the WT >>>>> Act >>>>> 2006. [...] >>>>> >>>> >>>> there is already a very big commercial user of the elf and vlf spectrum, >>>> they inject very big power into ground dipoles. emissions from one >>>> continent >>>> can be heard on another. and they do this without any license from the >>>> radio >>>> authorities. the only regulation they need regards maximum field >>>> strengths >>>> (and this is usually the realm of some environmental protection >>>> authority >>>> and not the radio authority). the operating frequency varies, but is >>>> usually >>>> 50Hz, 60Hz, 16.6Hz etc :) >>>> >>>> sometimes when dealing with the goverment, the best practice is not to >>>> ask >>>> at all :) even if they agree with you there will always be a "but you >>>> will >>>> need a license for that" clause. >>>> >>>> if you have to ask, ask them if it is their duty to regulate potential >>>> electromagnetic wave transmission from instalations operating on 50Hz >>>> (or >>>> any other frequency in the 0-9kHz region, that is not ITU regulated). >>>> you >>>> would probably get an entirely different answer :) >>>> >>>> VY 73 >>>> >>>> Jacek / SQ5BPF >>>> >>>> ps. the answer that you got from OFCOM is actually very nice >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > --00c09ff794096501f604808aee45 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pete,

=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Yes I guess I engaged in= a bit of hyperbole when I suggested that 9kHz won't cross the garden= wall, but not by much.
If you reckon that the world record is= 10km for an amateur and that was to receive a very faint ARGO trace then= for a signal to be audible it must be considerably closer.
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0=A0
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 You comment on politic= s reminds of the old joke:=A0
Q. =A0Do you know the difference= between capitalism and communism?
A. =A0In capitalism its dog= eat dog; in communism its the other way 'round !

--=A0
73 Warren K2ORS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0WD2XGJ=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WE2XGR/1=

=A0=A0

On Fri, Feb 26= , 2010 at 3:46 PM, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Warren
=A0
Well I can tell you right now that the garden wall is not the limit= by any means unless you live on John Wayne's Ranch.
Your New Presi= dent is trying to create jobs over there? He wants to take a leaf out of= our book we've been doing it for years... joking aside....... I am no= t expecting DX but to have a communication path that covers the local LF= Amateur community on VLF would be rather Cool I think. From there it may= be a long road that I for one=A0may not travel but at the moment there is= enough enthusiasm locally to try out a few ideas many have come from this= debate on the LF reflector. The near field signal is quite readable at ab= out 1/2 km from a very low power TX using a whip on RX=A0during a quick wi= z up the road in the car. Must key this thing my ears are ringing with thi= s continuous beat note running all the time.
=A0
73 es GL petefmt

---------------= -----------------------------------
From: "Warren Ziegler" &l= t;wd2xgj@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday= , February 25, 2010 9:31 PM
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Subject: Re: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9k= Hz?


Asking Ofcom for a license or= Nov to generate a signal that will not
extend past your own garden see= ms like a lot of trouble for
nothing....

--
73 Warren K2ORS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= WD2XGJ
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WD2XSH/23
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 WE2XEB/2
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 WE2XGR/1


On Thu= , Feb 25, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jacek Lipkowski <sq5bpf@lipkowski.org> wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Roger Lapthorn= wrote:

People may be interested in the rep= ly from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM received
today. I asked him what OFCOM&#= 39;s view would be.

[...]

They state that ITU Radio Regs= indicate that there is no allocation for
frequencies below 9 kHz. Howe= ver in the UK, a licence would be required as
there is no lower frequency limit for wireless telegraphy under the WT Act=
2006. [...]

there is already a very big commercial= user of the elf and vlf spectrum,
they inject very big power into grou= nd dipoles. emissions from one continent
can be heard on another. and they do this without any license from the rad= io
authorities. the only regulation they need regards maximum field str= engths
(and this is usually the realm of some environmental protection= authority
and not the radio authority). the operating frequency varies, but is usual= ly
50Hz, 60Hz, 16.6Hz etc :)

sometimes when dealing with the gov= erment, the best practice is not to ask
at all :) even if they agree with you there will always be a "but you will<= br>need a license for that" clause.

if you have to ask, ask th= em if it is their duty to regulate potential
electromagnetic wave trans= mission from instalations operating on 50Hz (or
any other frequency in the 0-9kHz region, that is not ITU regulated). you<= br>would probably get an entirely different answer :)

VY 73

= Jacek / SQ5BPF

ps. the answer that you got from OFCOM is actually= very nice













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