Return-Path: Received: from mtain-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.11]) by air-mb02.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMB022-a1904b89252e2c6; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:59:10 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 1AD453800011F; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NlNAe-0008Ui-NH for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:57:28 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NlNAe-0008UZ-9f for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:57:28 +0000 Received: from lnx500.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.156.225]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NlNAb-00053H-VH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 13:57:28 +0000 Received: from FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de (File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.212.129]) by lnx500.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/HRZ/PMX) with SMTP id o1RDvNp9026609 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:57:24 +0100 (envelope-from schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de) by FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de with AVK MailGateway; for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:57:23 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:53:54 +0100 Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B20@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B20@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Thread-Topic: LF: Re: 9kHz noise level Thread-Index: Acq3FDGdW7Wq1nSXTjCZDAorZegk9AAoBsdU References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= To: X-AVK-Virus-Check: AVB 19.717;31.01.2010 X-PMX-TU: seen v0.99a by 5.5.9.388399, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.2.27.134820 X-PMX-SPAMCHECK: outgoing mail X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAB7B4.C928C355" Subject: AW: LF: Re: 9kHz noise level X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/55582 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d600b4b89252b27cb X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAB7B4.C928C355 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear group,=20 =20 It seems that there are interesting theoretical questions to answer. And= we, the practical interested's, could do this by trying that. Anyway if= it is over 10km or 200km... Maybe we'll get some nice surprises... =20 Stefan/DK7FC ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Alexander S. Yurkov Gesendet: Sa 27.02.2010 02:47 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: Re: LF: Re: 9kHz noise level On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Andy Talbot wrote: > probably end up appearing quite close to Gaussian. Certainly, on 73k= Hz > the impulsive Loran interference and natural spikes appeared completely > Gaussian when filtered to the sub-Hz bandwidth we used there. Andy, certanly AFTER filtering noise became gaussian. But matter of fact is that if noise is nongaussian then to get optimal reception one should make some nonlinear processing (limiting in simplest way) BEFORE narrow band filtering. After filtering when noise is gaussian limiting or someone else nonliniar processing has no sence. There is exact matematical theorem: if noise is gaussian then optimal signal processing is linear filtering (or correlator calculation in coherent case). > However, for 9kHz signalling, I think you would do a lot better by going= for > coherent signalling. IMHO coherent signaling improoves SNR by 3 dB. It does not depend of the fact if noise is gaussian or nongaussian. Anyway this (coherent signaling) is linear processing nonoptimal when noise is nongaussian. Interesting quation arises there. Is any optimal form of the signal if noise is nongaussian? I don't know answer. This is high science. But if noise is gaussian then form of the signal has no meaning. Only energy of the signal has meaning if noise is gaussian (with constant spectrum). If filter is optimal for specific signal of couse.=20 Regards, Alexander/RA9MB ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAB7B4.C928C355 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhgNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAHQAAAEFXOiBMRjogUmU6IDlrSHog bm9pc2UgbGV2ZWwAywgBBYADAA4AAADaBwIAGwAOADUANgAGAH0BASCAAwAOAAAA2gcCABsADgA5 ABcABgBiAQEJgAEAIQAAADBDMTU1RTE5MjBGOUYzNDk4NkNDQkQ4RThCOThDQUFEAG8HAQOQBgA4 EQAAOAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5ABuouUy0t8oBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAQVc6IAAAAAACAUcAAQAAADIA AABjPURFO2E9IDtwPUhTVDtsPUZJTEUtU0VSVkVSLUgtMTAwMjI3MTM1NzIzWi0xMjA4AAAAHgBJ AAEAAAAdAAAAUmU6IExGOiBSZTogOWtIeiBub2lzZSBsZXZlbAAAAABAAE4AgLR+z063ygEeAFoA AQAAACMAAABvd25lci1yc2diX2xmX2dyb3VwQGJsYWNrc2hlZXAub3JnAAACAVsAAQAAAGMAAAAA AAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABvd25lci1yc2diX2xmX2dyb3VwQGJsYWNrc2hlZXAub3Jn AFNNVFAAb3duZXItcnNnYl9sZl9ncm91cEBibGFja3NoZWVwLm9yZwAAAgFcAAEAAAAoAAAAU01U UDpPV05FUi1SU0dCX0xGX0dST1VQQEJMQUNLU0hFRVAuT1JHAB4AXQABAAAAFAAAAEFsZXhhbmRl ciBTLiBZdXJrb3YAAgFeAAEAAABEAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAQWxleGFuZGVy IFMuIFl1cmtvdgBTTVRQAGZpdGVjQG9tc2tjaXR5LmNvbQACAV8AAQAAABgAAABTTVRQOkZJVEVD QE9NU0tDSVRZLkNPTQAeAGYAAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AZwABAAAAIwAAAG93bmVyLXJzZ2Jf bGZfZ3JvdXBAYmxhY2tzaGVlcC5vcmcAAB4AaAABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgBpAAEAAAATAAAA Zml0ZWNAb21za2NpdHkuY29tAAAeAHAAAQAAABkAAABMRjogUmU6IDlrSHogbm9pc2UgbGV2ZWwA AAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAcq3FDGdW7Wq1nSXTjCZDAorZegk9AAoBsdUAB4AdAABAAAAHQAAAHJz Z2JfbGZfZ3JvdXBAYmxhY2tzaGVlcC5vcmcAAAAAHgAaDAEAAAAPAAAAU3RlZmFuIFNjaORmZXIA AB4AHQ4BAAAAGQAAAExGOiBSZTogOWtIeiBub2lzZSBsZXZlbAAAAAACAQkQAQAAANAJAADMCQAA 7h4AAExaRnVCEL9wAwAKAHJjcGcxMjWCMgNDaHRtbDEDMD8BAwH3CoACpAPjAgBjaMEKwHNldDAg BxMCgP8QAwBQBFYIVQeyEdUOUQMB3RDXMgYABsMR1TMERhDZWRLvZjQDxhGKNQPGVHxhaANxAoAR 4wjvCfc7ext/DjA1HJ8ccRHhDGBjZwBQCwkBZDM2EWALpTRyIBACKlwOsgGQDhA5ACA8SFRNTCBk iGlyPSIQcj59IdPnACEDMCMhZG8A4CMhCrH8XHEbYCMhEPADMCOFEWCNIYszIWAigEVBRCNQCSGM NzcicFRJVEwORSd9IVAO8FJlOiAMTEYqUCoyOWtIegggbm8EAGUgbGVIdmVsJ404NSJwL3covyIi CuMgLZ8urw4QNkEO8DxNRVRBKzBhAQeAPUdFTkVSQXBUT1IgBaACMAnwdAw9IgXgIpM4LjAwIi4g wDAxLizQODf8NiInfSoBLRAnPynRL98FIiE1EWA8Qk9EWUcnfSDRN09nOTYicESESVYi1iBpZD08 IBhPV0EqMAtQeVRlgHh0NTg5MzIjWf8AACSFJSMk4SV/OW86fzuHzz2PPp8/oyGpNjRDGj9vCSIE NDgicEZPTlSzMpEbET0jM8BJciAAkPZ6MeAU8GYA0DHgBxNDC35jE/ADsgHQAzEhYEb4RE5lCsEJ wAhgcCwhfTX9OzEvSLIjWSNnRVsBwCNnrwqiUCgKgCGMMCcBLzth/09/R09Av0HPQt9D71BfRg// VX9ILEnvWQtMH11+Tu9VHwUhuDghYCZuYnNw8wKAI3gnYQFAWu9RX1Jv/1N/VI9kj1avV79Yz1nf Zz+/W/9sX14fXy9gP0x7SQVA6REwZW0EIHQRAAVAeZB/BJArgArAK4ALgDLQHgBz+nQLgGd50gWw EUAN4AdAvCBxClB64QIgeXFvejAVAIB3BJAuEXBuZCDHfQBN4HnhIHByANB7pDN6hgmAJ3NN4AWg dWyPfXAkQHmBBAAgYnl5gBxyeXsEebB9Mnl3Yd+AgAaQPBAFQIBBbyvABcB5avBrbYJgBcAB0ILR LjeDkAXQgbBiK4B9ACds/QMgZxFAdeADcCuAAwB2gO914AhwfhArYXODkWIfYy//UC9oL2k/ak9r X3QPbX9uj/9vn3Cvcb9yz3PfdO91/3cP/2Evhl+Hb5m/ZW9mf4jPid//iu+L/5v/jh+PL5A/kU+S X3+Tb5R/pN+Wn5evmL+sNlMLMtCukG6jcEs3RkP/mk+bX4hfoF+hb6J/o4+sP/+3v7jPpQ+mH6cv qD+pT7xv9jEOIDiBUiNaCrEKgcGf270vvjtIMoABkUl9YD0AWD0tMa88AFBxAOBxFmoMYH/AYgMw fiBf78oyyfEkAAuAZbYjxF/Fbu+qn6uvrL+tzz0aJK8/AzF/LPDO752HOJC/u8nh04dW7QIgOsZs wxEv1Sq0GYJgEnfK4HItESBnYl9obGZfTZNAAmAA0Gv2c3nwPLAuBbB7IAdwEXDudQGAfiB7IHYC IBFwK6BeeABwBIEGAH0wWQhwa/+CcMItOzHDTMrCy1/Ub9V/3eCyRweQCfABAHTW/9gPl9kXBhCD MDczsDIuAdDFurAg5zA6NDfd/98P/+Af4S/iP+qkfVDkL+U/2Rf/2g/bGegP6R/qL+s/7E/05P5C EUAeAAEg7d/u79kXKj//K0nyT/Nf9G+yL7M//1/9b//+f7R/tY+2n7pvAX/L/8YPv76nv7sKPwtP zYkicFDDb78OGA1/An/QbdIf02lP3KCWRoWwTeAyOzBGZcngH+diTeB9UYHA0bBsYm/9giB3TaAy 0PhsA38Ej/U/aCZndJ5pPtj5fhBv1mLHsDzQIOPRIE3AejB8cHBNUXsCfACCECuAY4dJIPxRfKFH YXVzriD/fNCGLJ3vnv4i3yPvJP8mD98nHygvKT8qT9lxQ90wx6DPeoA80E3g3JE3M/vhGh9/Gy8c Px1PHl/ZU33S29Bwf3+wriCCgPtAgxB80Hp0Zv16AW6FQd0BhRB5sN2gfoH5LKBpa4XgIKV/MH+B NYD/3NAZ4DzQL58wrzG/Ms8z35/ZUyJGfYB58NygZmkQkJ96AX1wfKF90oVwYi378eMf4H1gd2lk eZB9gSBw//xQQJF58oYtOo87n0MfRC/7RTwY8ixGH0cvRTyusC6B4y7B2/BGVEXHgEAkewJv/CSE AHvAhPFnIlb34HX7giDR8HR+0YMAEbCukYIj/3mSSW9Kf0U8geH8JIBB/CA/exA/VnnhVWF8sISS b3D/evDR8MFg+CCusFZR3JF8YP+FUdHQf7LR8DgwhMNRD1If/0U8VMHKwg/BH7GusCJxexH6KMrA bYIQewJ6gK4ROSJXfxB9gIGwKffgRdCgUupFN3Fy8RB3QYNYr1m//0U8TVd9Mdwg3TFNWD/TVDf/ VPddB4MRhNJXYV/PYN9FPP/8sPxRW6SvAFwreaBUonkh+zcBfTBUefOAQdzhUGFPoX95UHmwfmJn H2gvRTx7RG3f+zBUClT8VkauIGc3gMFgf1xJgEFb1G4/b09h702FKH+DEX+QXzD8sIEweUJ+gGP/ f7Bt0dyRXZF/kGyifsB6Ef38UClDD3afRS98L30/fk+3PP8+D9lxSNmg/JFyGABeZnnx+9Nz5MrB ZxgASeM1ITZwayB58SA/wFfDfmQiIObgIcBQcE5QT8Ni/RkgZ/wwZEGFMX8PgB+BL/+CP4NP2VN7 F4XIe/+Kb4t/h5BvkX+SiklNSE+O/p9dUzWA8RDd0DhBU07HgNWIoTO/MEJPQElQcIeg/zhB/CCZ QfHgIEJQEJNPlF9/cF9QNXHfNkF58VTJY1Fu7nleUYaSbQAoexaaj5uf/5JslydegHUHXDpUwVZG ZHz/n5qhv6LPkm+pP6pPlZo2gv9eESEUeoQg8fxQUKJC0oZw/zhRoHBWN4Ux2+BQEUDjc/SfnhCs D60fWs6n324/hnHph6BuJ1Bwa/wgX2BfkHpzQjBybHJQkVCRhrBn8UIQc2NpbDOMbyyPKr//ur+7 z9kmT2Gzb7R/Uy+eT/9VdLIfsfBrtWbAX5BjIxeg+yAT3TBnOZ/Bb6sdxV/GlvvDXz+DKEHQQgE5 ALigTJHHj3Eg0FBgcnVte+/I3/+uD1AhQDNQgrGZzrPMgG3w/3PWUBE5AEJhul++T7x/z69/0L/X z9jf2e/a9fsQTsBy/GRzSV/cb0gu/IBtMOPhgHIvUkE5TULe7//f/9qP4w/kH+Uv5j/nT+hf/+lv 6n/rjwCfCc4GjweVEU//7l8GFO/REREIDwkf9B8QdII1FQEvQk9EWfXthDI379FIVE1MESACffvQ HgA1EAEAAABXAAAAPDM4QTUxQjc0Qjg4NEQ3NDA4M0Q3OTUwQUQwREQ4NUU4MkExQjIwQEZpbGUt U2VydmVyLUhTVC5oc3QuZS10ZWNobmlrLnR1LWRhcm1zdGFkdC5kZT4AAB4AORABAAAAQgAAADxQ aW5lLkxOWC4zLjk1LjExMDAyMjcwMTA0MzcuMjcyQS0xMDAwMDBAbm9uYW1lLm5vZG9tYWluLm5v d2hlcmU+AAAAHgBHEAEAAAAPAAAAbWVzc2FnZS9yZmM4MjIAAAsA8hABAAAAHwDzEAEAAABOAAAA QQBXACUAMwBBACAATABGACUAMwBBACAAUgBlACUAMwBBACAAOQBrAEgAegAgAG4AbwBpAHMAZQAg AGwAZQB2AGUAbAAuAEUATQBMAAAAAAALAPYQAAAAAEAABzDBRbdMtLfKAUAACDBxETfJtLfKAQMA 3j+vbwAAAwDxPwcEAAAeAPg/AQAAAA8AAABTdGVmYW4gU2No5GZlcgAAAgH5PwEAAABcAAAAAAAA ANynQMjAQhAatLkIACsv4YIBAAAAAAAAAC9PPUhTVC9PVT1FUlNURSBBRE1JTklTVFJBVElWRSBH UlVQUEUvQ049UkVDSVBJRU5UUy9DTj1TQ0hBRUZFUgAeAPo/AQAAABUAAABTeXN0ZW0gQWRtaW5p c3RyYXRvcgAAAAACAfs/AQAAAB4AAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAALgAAAAMA /T/kBAAAAwAZQAAAAAADABpAAAAAAAMAHUAAAAAAAwAeQAAAAAAeADBAAQAAAAkAAABTQ0hBRUZF UgAAAAAeADFAAQAAAAkAAABTQ0hBRUZFUgAAAAAeADJAAQAAACMAAABvd25lci1yc2diX2xmX2dy b3VwQGJsYWNrc2hlZXAub3JnAAAeADNAAQAAABMAAABmaXRlY0BvbXNrY2l0eS5jb20AAB4AOEAB AAAACQAAAFNDSEFFRkVSAAAAAB4AOUABAAAAAgAAAC4AAAADAHZA/////wsAKQAAAAAACwAjAAAA AAADAAYQJT0LQQMABxDXBQAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAERFQVJHUk9VUCxJ VFNFRU1TVEhBVFRIRVJFQVJFSU5URVJFU1RJTkdUSEVPUkVUSUNBTFFVRVNUSU9OU1RPQU5TV0VS QU5EV0UsVEhFUFJBQ1RJQ0FMSU5URVJFU1RFRFMsQ08AAAAAAgF/AAEAAABXAAAAPDM4QTUxQjc0 Qjg4NEQ3NDA4M0Q3OTUwQUQwREQ4NUU4MkExQjIwQEZpbGUtU2VydmVyLUhTVC5oc3QuZS10ZWNo bmlrLnR1LWRhcm1zdGFkdC5kZT4AAJ3j ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAB7B4.C928C355--