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Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:27:57 +0100
Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B19@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de>
Thread-Topic: 9kHz
Thread-Index: Acq2AY2LNdY0xqViSjuJ8N5g6GET0QADAcDD
References: <001c01cab575$6bbb0460$0401a8c0@xphd97xgq27nyf> <20100225094846.EA85531E702@smtps01.kuleuven.be>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
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	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAB60D.B2E90BBA"
Subject: LF: AW: 9kHz
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
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Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org


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Yes, Rik. That's the problem. There will ever be very high voltages, even=
 with a 300m vertical. So, one can start the calculation by defining the=
 maximum allowed voltage at the antenna wire (to avoid PD). Then, with a=
 given C of the wire the maximum current is achieved. With the coil, that=
 is fixed in my case (disadvantage) but well dimensioned (high Q, advantag=
e) i have to spend that parallel C that will increase the coil surrent und=
 thus the losses, and so on and on...=20
The alternative would be to wound a individual high L coil but this is mat=
erial- and time intensive, maybe 1km of not to thin wire. If Q should be=
 high it may become a problem to put that coil into a car to bring it to=
 the field ;-) And the high voltage aspect makes it even more difficult.=
 So, it seems easier to me to take a smaller but available coil (85mH is=
 not too bad) and Cs and spend 7dB more TX power to generate the losses ;-=
)=20
Yes, the small bandwith may cause additional problems. Perhaps it is an id=
ea to inject the power by an inductive coupled primary coil, like in a tes=
la transformer. Then one could resonate the system at the low voltage inpu=
t...=20

Tomorrow i will get such a coil and will measure the impedance and Q @ 8,9=
kHz. In a next step i will resonate it (at home, without an antenna) and=
 look which power is needed to achieve 20kV rms, and what will happen with=
 the Cs! Then i will built a class D PA for abt 100...300W at 12V (2x 2x=
 IRF1405 or so. FETs will be driven with my DDS-VFO and a suitable driver,=
 like ICL7667...). I will report here then...=20

What about your tests, Rik. Any improved arrangements? :-)=20

73, Stefan=20

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Rik Strobbe
Gesendet: Do 25.02.2010 10:48
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: LF: 9kHz


Stefan,

did you have a look at the graph Jim (M0BMU) showed yesterday ? This may=
 indicate that in an open area you might be better off than 1/f, maybe in=
 the 50..100 Ohm range.
Last night I was mulling about Alexanders remark that a parallel C would=
 increase the losses. At first though I would say that the parallel C just=
 performs some kind of impedance transformation without inducing additiona=
l losses. And this is true if the loading coil would be perfect (no losses=
).
But for a real world situation (ie. assuming a constant Q =3D 250 for the=
 loading coil) Alexander is right: the transformation caused by a large pa=
rallel C causes extreme high currents in the loading coil, and thus higher=
 losses.
Simulation (with SIMetrix) confirms this.
Taking your antenna (580pF / 50 Ohm)
1. Without parallel C you would need a 550mH loading coil. At Q =3D 250 th=
e coil loss would be 130 Ohm. Putting 100W into this system would result=
 in an antenna current of about 750mA and antenna voltage of 23kV. 750mA=
 trough the loading coil means a dissipation of 73W.
2. With a 3.2nF parallel C you would need a 85mH loading coil. At Q =3D 25=
0 the coil loss would be 20 Ohm. But putting 100W into this system would=
 result in only 330mA antenna current, while the current through the loadi=
ng coil would be 2.1A (=3D 88W dissipation). The reduction in antenna curr=
ent (750mA to 330mA) would lower the ERP by 7dB.
In addition the parallel C will decrease the antenna bandwidth significant=
ly, making it difficult to tune.

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

At 01:14 25/02/2010, you wrote:


    Here i agree. And here i understand "dreamers" in a positive and optim=
istic way, just like children are dreamers!
    We have written so many mails (including me, of course ;-) ) und could=
 start now just to try what is possible to reach more than 10km if not don=
e yet.=20
   =20
    On the LF pages of DK8KW i found a notice of a successful 2 way QSO ov=
er 10km @ <9kHz. Does anybody know about more than 10km by amateurs?
   =20
    Yesterday in the night i talked more than 1 hour to Markus/DF6NM and=
 he persuaded me to try it with the 100m vertical in a first test. Maybe=
 i get that temp licence for a 300m kite vertical but the public autoritys=
 are still discussing if i need a special casualty insurance...
   =20
    Do you, the group, think that it makes sense to try it if the next lis=
tening station is >50km or even more away? What could be possible if this=
 would be the arrangement with the 100m vertical:
    =20
    The wire has abt 580pF
    I can get a air coil with L=3D85mH out of a 20kV field. DC resistance=
 abt 150mOhm, continous current abt 30A, voltage over coil abt 30kV rms (i=
f it remains dry(!)), measured self resonance frequency abt 50kHz.
    So, if f=3D8,9kHz, a parallel C of abt 3,2nF is needed (i can get some=
 470pF/40kV Cs, no problem)
    The voltage across my thin wire should be limited to abt 20kV rms, tha=
t means, antenna current should not exceed 650mA.
    If Rik's 1/f dependency is valid, then my ground losses will be in the=
 region of 250 Ohm (no houses and trees there on the hill in a radius of=
 abt 100m; 15Ohm @ 137 kHz).
    So, 100W TX power would radiate 1,4mW and thus the efficiency would be=
 0,0014%. In that case, i mustn't apply more than 100W since the voltage=
 across the wire would be to high, so no need for a QRO PA...
    =20
    If that calculation is reasonably correct, what distance could be reac=
hed with 1,4mW @ 8,9 kHz in e.g. QRSS10 and the noise level that can be ex=
pected on a sunday morning? :-)
    =20
    73 es wish gl to all those, who are trying in these days ;-)
    =20
    Stefan/DK7FC

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