Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mb07.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mb07.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.27]) by air-mc08.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMC084-a98e4b840368391; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:33:44 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mb07.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id C88F538000516; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Njxgd-000266-DW for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:32:39 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Njxgc-00025x-RN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:32:38 +0000 Received: from lnx500.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.156.225]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Njxga-0005A0-BB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:32:38 +0000 Received: from FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de (File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.212.129]) by lnx500.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/HRZ/PMX) with SMTP id o1NGWX98019801 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:32:34 +0100 (envelope-from schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de) by FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de with AVK MailGateway; for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:32:34 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:32:34 +0100 Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B12@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B12@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Thread-Topic: VLF_8.79 kHz_grounding systems Thread-Index: Acq0nlgrgPGVQm5OS1ydzGOJ574hIwAALueg References: <894020.13023.qm@web86508.mail.ird.yahoo.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= To: X-AVK-Virus-Check: AVB 19.717;31.01.2010 X-PMX-TU: seen v0.99a by 5.5.9.388399, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.2.23.161221 X-PMX-SPAMCHECK: outgoing mail X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAB4A5.CDBC1E5B" Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz_grounding systems X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/55409 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d601b4b84035b317e X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAB4A5.CDBC1E5B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Alan, but what is the difference between a ground stake and the alu foi= l, when talking about the resistive losses? That would be also a poor qual= ity ohmic connection, isn't it? And think about how many meters of stake= you need if you want to have the same C that will be achieved by 5m*30cm= Alu foil? How much time and work for a short test. =20 Perhaps you know my /p radial for 137kHz: It is a simple copper plate of= 0,2m*25m, so 5m^2. With that configuration i reach <30 Ohm overall losses= . My coil losses are 13 Ohm, radiation resistance is 0,8 Ohm, wire losses= abt 1 Ohm and soil conductivity abt 6mS. This radial is just rolled out= on a stony field on the hill, 350m ASL (see my picture @ qrz.com). While= others bury 100s of m of cable and run 10s of meters of earth rods into= the ground i achieve earth losses of less than 15 Ohm with just such a pl= ate. In /p i do not have the nerves and time to roll out 100s of m of radi= als so i was happy to find, that this a good solution too. In my theory,= it is necessary to get a good connection to the ground by a high coupling= capacity and that means a high area metallic electrode close above ground= . Although the area is so much concentrated at the feed point, the results= are so good. So i expect that this may be a good solution on VLF as well.= =20 Trying a cheep alu foil for the household, less than 2EUR for 30m*0,3m sho= uld be worth for everyone to try if earth losses could be decreased :-) Al= most no money and/or time is needed :-) =20 73, Stefan =20 =20 ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von ALAN MELIA Gesendet: Di 23.02.2010 16:31 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: Re: AW: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz Hi Stefan, my comment was related to the fact that if you support the foil= a few inches above the ground that will be fine but you will get a much= smaller capacitance. If you bury it or place it on the ground you are rat= her making a poor quality ohmic connection (lotsa loss!) to the ground and= it would be better to ground the end of the wire to a good copper spike= like a "half loop". It is also quite difficult to make a good connection= to the foil, with a big capacitance there will be a lot of current flowin= g (hopefully :-)) ). If you use an HV capacitor you would connect one terminal to the end of th= e wire and the other to a ground stake. Rik had some comments on this conf= iguration at 136, but I dont think he ever tried it in practice. Alan G3NYK --- On Tue, 23/2/10, Stefan Sch=E4fer wrote= : > From: Stefan Sch=E4fer > Subject: AW: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 2010, 15:05 > Hi Alan, >=20 > Well, i expect the oxide film losses of the foil should be > neglectible, compared to the ground losses. And one has the > advantege to reach a high C that is easy to adjust/modify > and cheep and that has no overvoltage and heating problems. > Aren't the radials of a LF vertical not almost the same, in > principal? I mean, one electrode of a HV capacitor with a > lossy dielectricum? ;-) >=20 > Using a HV capacitor or coax cable is also a good choice, > of course, but it may be difficult to get proper C at those > voltages. And if we are talking about connecting the end of > a inv L antenna to ground (here: soil) the next question is: > Where do you connect the second electrode of your C? A coax, > say RG213 may be connected to the antenna wire with the > inner line. But where do you connect the screen? Bringing it > back to the shack and connecting to ground would mean not to > use the soil as the conductor any more and throwing the coax > just on the bottom would be nonsense since then, one could > just take a standard wire which is principally almost the > same like aluminium foil. Using such a simple wire would > mean to require 100s of m of cable to get the same C. And in > such a configuration a high C to ground is essential since > one wants to have a practicable small L for resonance (to > handle the losses). >=20 > Therefore i had the idea just to try a real loop that needs > just a high C with less voltage (probably <1kV). > If we assume a inv L of 10m hight and 50m horizontal > section and make a rectangular loop out of it, the XL will > be in the region of 15 Ohm (?). Then a C of abt 1=B5F will > resonate the loop. Applying 100W and assuming 2 Ohm losses > will produce abt 7A and a voltage of 750V above the C, no > problem to find such a C :-) Starting with a closed loop is > much easier since no L and maybe even no R transformation is > necessary. And with a horizontal section of <50m, the > increased loop area when using the ground/soil may be not > really much more, but with the disadvantage to need a L with > a high R and/or less Q... >=20 >=20 > Markus/DF6NM has also good ideas but i do not want to tell > his ideas. Markus? Go on! ;-) >=20 > Stefan/DK7FC > > ________________________________ > > Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > im Auftrag von ALAN MELIA > Gesendet: Di 23.02.2010 13:31 > An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Betreff: Re: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz > > > > Hi Stefan, I am not sure about your aluminium foil idea. I > worry that this will form a lossy capacitor because the > dielectric a think film of ali oxide will break down in > places at this voltage and also there is the inknown of the > contact with the ground. I would rather use some UR67 it can > be a length unsuitable for real feeder work (I uses coax as > a capacitor in an HV pulse generator many years ago and > though the spec is 6kV it certainly survived 15kV with no > burns though the dielectric. Rik and I discussed this format > at length many years ago for 136kHz but I dont think either > of us did any tests. > > I would suggest an HV capacitor might be the alternative > old TV EHT type?? > > Actually grounding the remote ends is a lot easier and a > lot less to carry if you are operating "portable" > > Alan G3NYK ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAB4A5.CDBC1E5B Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiMQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAHwAAAFZMRl84Ljc5IGtIel9ncm91 bmRpbmcgc3lzdGVtcwDOCgEFgAMADgAAANoHAgAXABEAIAAiAAIATwEBIIADAA4AAADaBwIAFwAR ACAAIgACAE8BAQmAAQAhAAAAQzVGNEIyN0I5NTQ4QTQ0NTlCQkNBRUE1OTAyQTk3ODMASgcBA5AG ALwfAAA4AAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAWx68zaW0ygEeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAgFHAAEAAAAyAAAA Yz1ERTthPSA7cD1IU1Q7bD1GSUxFLVNFUlZFUi1ILTEwMDIyMzE2MzIzNFotMTAyNQAAAB4ASQAB AAAAHQAAAFJlOiBBVzogQVc6IExGOiBWTEZfOC43OSBrSHoAAAAAQABOAIDUc1WdtMoBHgBaAAEA 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