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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:05:37 +0100
Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B11@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de>
Thread-Topic: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
Thread-Index: Acq0hTyc/6I2WNK3SrSmSR0NcpIY5QADNuuu
References: <757273.75752.qm@web86507.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
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	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAB499.A805FA64"
Subject: AW: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org


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Hi Alan,
=20
Well, i expect the oxide film losses of the foil should be neglectible, co=
mpared to the ground losses. And one has the advantege to reach a high C=
 that is easy to adjust/modify and cheep and that has no overvoltage and=
 heating problems. Aren't the radials of a LF vertical not almost the same=
, in principal? I mean, one electrode of a HV capacitor with a lossy diele=
ctricum? ;-)
=20
Using a HV capacitor or coax cable is also a good choice, of course, but=
 it may be difficult to get proper C at those voltages. And if we are talk=
ing about connecting the end of a inv L antenna to ground (here: soil) the=
 next question is: Where do you connect the second electrode of your C? A=
 coax, say RG213 may be connected to the antenna wire with the inner line.=
 But where do you connect the screen? Bringing it back to the shack and co=
nnecting to ground would mean not to use the soil as the conductor any mor=
e and throwing the coax just on the bottom would be nonsense since then,=
 one could just take a standard wire which is principally almost the same=
 like aluminium foil. Using such a simple wire would mean to require 100s=
 of m of cable to get the same C. And in such a configuration a high C to=
 ground is essential since one wants to have a practicable small L for res=
onance (to handle the losses).
=20
Therefore i had the idea just to try a real loop that needs just a high C=
 with less voltage (probably <1kV).=20
If we assume a inv L of 10m hight and 50m horizontal section and make a re=
ctangular loop out of it, the XL will be in the region of 15 Ohm (?). Then=
 a C of abt 1=B5F will resonate the loop. Applying 100W and assuming 2 Ohm=
 losses will produce abt 7A and a voltage of 750V above the C, no problem=
 to find such a C :-) Starting with a closed loop is much easier since no=
 L and maybe even no R transformation is necessary. And with a horizontal=
 section of <50m, the increased loop area when using the ground/soil may=
 be not really much more, but with the disadvantage to need a L with a hig=
h R and/or less Q...
=20
=20
Markus/DF6NM has also good ideas but i do not want to tell his ideas. Mark=
us? Go on! ;-)
=20
Stefan/DK7FC

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von ALAN MELIA
Gesendet: Di 23.02.2010 13:31
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: Re: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz



Hi Stefan, I am not sure about your aluminium foil idea. I worry that this=
 will form a lossy capacitor because the dielectric a think film of ali ox=
ide will break down in places at this voltage and also there is the inknow=
n of the contact with the ground. I would rather use some UR67 it can be=
 a length unsuitable for real feeder work (I uses coax as a capacitor in=
 an HV pulse generator many years ago and though the spec is 6kV it certai=
nly survived 15kV with no burns though the dielectric. Rik and I discussed=
 this format at length many years ago for 136kHz but I dont think either=
 of us did any tests.

I would suggest an HV capacitor might be the alternative old TV EHT type??

Actually grounding the remote ends is a lot easier and a lot less to carry=
 if you are operating "portable"

Alan G3NYK

--- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan Sch=E4fer <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote=
:

> From: Stefan Sch=E4fer <schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
> Subject: AW: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 23:36
> Rik, Alan,
>=20
> I think we think about the same: using the inv-L as a
> vertical loop by using the ground.
>=20
> Wouldn't it be easier to use a aluminium foil to get proper
> C (to ground), especially when talking about high voltages
> and high currents? Just covered with some soil and easy to
> adjust/modify...
>=20
> Stefan
>
> ________________________________


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