Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.23]) by air-mc07.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINMC072-a97c4b6df29e106; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:52:14 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 353ED38000128; Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NdtUH-0006ZY-4a for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:50:49 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NdtUG-0006ZP-Fh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:50:48 +0000 Received: from lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.156.232]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NdtUE-0007PD-4q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:50:48 +0000 Received: from FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de (File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.212.129]) by lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/HRZ/PMX) with SMTP id o16Moivs012419 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2010 23:50:45 +0100 (envelope-from schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de) by FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de with AVK MailGateway; for ; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:50:44 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 23:50:43 +0100 Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1AEE@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1AEE@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Thread-Topic: active ant on metallic mast Thread-Index: AcqnLBzyrShBW58pQ76YPb9JbK7HfgAGwooBAAb2dyAABTAOeA== References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= To: X-AVK-Virus-Check: AVB 19.717;31.01.2010 X-PMX-TU: seen v0.99a by 5.5.9.388399, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.2.6.223623 X-PMX-SPAMCHECK: outgoing mail X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR=0.276 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAA77E.D06143B9" Subject: LF: AW: RE: active ant on metallic mast X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/54546 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60174b6df29d29ff X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA77E.D06143B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Victor,=20 =20 Where can i get the design of your preamp? Is it a broad band design or al= so with some band pass filters? Is it with FETs and/or with OP amps? 28V?= I assume +-14V, right? ;-) Is in this shed a 230V supply or is it completely ("electrically") apart= from the house? =20 "Less qrm and higher output", does this mean the noise level itself decrea= sed, so not compared to the wanted signal? If hight increases and the infl= uence of surrounding lossy things decreases, the E-Field and thus the inpu= t voltage increases, and thus the SNR, if noise level remains the same. An= d if you then decrease the AF of your RX to get again a proper visible sig= nal in e.g. Argo, the noise gets into the background. But does the noisele= vel itself decreases also significantly? If so, there must be a noise sour= ce in the near of the shed, isn't it? =20 I think when i will do the test with the active antenna with the 2 UKW var= iable antennas, i will mount it to the kite and look how it depends when= it is 50m above ground, completely isolated. Perhaps not very useful but= interesting ;-) =20 You decreased the lenght from 1m to 60cm. Have you also tried 30cm? A hight of 7m gave the best results you said. So things get worse, when yo= u go to 10m hight?? If so, what do you think is the reason for that? Or is= the shed under a 400kV power line? ;-) =20 Victor and Roelof, tnx for your hints and ideas. I like that conversation= and i like to try mni unusual things. A receiving loop will give the best= signal i assume, but it is not very easy to handle if one is always /p.= =20 =20 Congrats to the canadian stns to be back on LF!! Hpe to get a contact to= VO1NA next! But since 6 weeks there is almost no wind at weekend, the lon= gest break since 2 years :-( But i will be back with a big signal :-) =20 73, Stefan/DK7FC =20 =20 ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von victor13@online.nl Gesendet: Sa 06.02.2010 20:46 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: LF: RE: active ant on metallic mast Hello Stefan,Roelof, =20 for about 4 years now I am using an active whip with good results.The ante= nna is placed on a shed about 10 m from the house.I varied the height betw= een 2 m and 9 m.With a height of 2 m(the roof) I had alot of qrm and a low= output,raising it to 5m or higher improved things a lot.Less qrm and high= er output,to prevent im i decreased the size of the whip from 1m to 60 cm.= At a height of 7m this gives the besr results.no detectable im from local= mw stations and a good S/N ratio of weak signals.As an experiment I repla= ced the steel pole for a glassfibre one,this didn't change any thing.This= could be espected because of the coax cable you are always at the same po= tential as with a steel pole.Ofcourse using a battery and a glassfibre ch= anges things but for me this is not very practical because my whip draws= 120mA @ 28V. Hope to hear more from your experiments, =20 73 Victor PA3FNY -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]Namen= s Stefan Sch=E4fer Verzonden: zaterdag 6 februari 2010 17:47 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: LF: active ant on metallic mast =20 =20 Hi Roelof, LF, =20 Roelof, why do you think that this is the case? Interesting Question!= "Won't work" means "Won't work properly" it assume. There will be a signa= l but perhaps it is not optimal. And why could this be the case? If the ap= plication is in a metallic housing that is mounted to a metallic mast, the= capacity of the "ground electrode" against the environment must be very= high (can be seen as infinite, i assume), compared to the active element= (gate of the FET). Perhaps there will also be a better coupling to qrm so= urces? I also have to make some measurements. The antennas we use are comp= arale i think. So we could share (all) share our experiences :-) =20 A special question comes up when a optic fiber cable is used, since in= a coax application there remains a high C of the ground electrode, even= when a symmetrical transformer is used (since the active element has just= a few pF to the far field). That special question is: What will happen,= when the case/ground electrode becomes small against the active element= (e.g. circuit in SMD, small battery inside)?! Will there be a change in= the optimal C of the active element to the far field? I assume, then, one= has to define an optimal C ratio of both electrodes. Will it behave as a= short dipole? And what about a short vertical (30cm) active antenna that= is directly placed on the ground with a almost ideal conducting ground pl= ane, e.g. aluminium foil (out of the household) in a radius of 1m (ignorin= g the local qrm problem, so e.g. in your garden, apart from the city)? =20 On my new qth i made first steps to receive LF with the active antenna= mounted just 2m above ground but hung up on a wet tree. Results were vy= bad. I thought that SNR could be better when increasing the active elemen= t since signals were weak (DCF39 at S7), but it wasn't. The optimal length= was still 30cm. That seems not only to be "sufficient" but rather optimal= ! So less and more is worse, unaffected by the hight above gnd? =20 I think one has to imagine the E-Field lines that are going through th= e ambience. The fieldstrength seems just to be very small in a lossy envir= onment (on my hill, where no trees can be found, the antenna was also 2m= up and DCF39 was S9+20). So hight above ground seems to essencial, even= without local qrm. Each decrease of input signal can be compensated by mo= re gain but SNR decreases, of course. =20 What are your ideas to these thoughts? What do you think will happen= if the ground-electrode-C becomes small against the C of the active eleme= nt? What will be the optimum C for both? Will the electrodes have the same= "importance", like as a short dipole? Questions over Questions ;-)=20 =20 Recently i had the idea to test that with a variable antenna of a /p= UKW radio, perhaps two for each electrode. That will be interesting to pl= ay with ;-) =20 73!! Stefan/DK7FC ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Roelof Bakker Gesendet: Sa 06.02.2010 13:53 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: Re: LF: AW: Re: test signal wanted =20 =20 Hello Stefan, =20 Probably a bit late, bit I have been told that an active whip won't wo= rk=20 well on a metalic mast. I never tried it myself (still on the to do list) due to lack of a=20 suitable mast. =20 73, Roelof, pa0rdt =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA77E.D06143B9 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ii0WAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAJAAAAEFXOiBSRTogYWN0aXZlIGFu dCBvbiBtZXRhbGxpYyBtYXN0AP8LAQWAAwAOAAAA2gcCAAYAFwAyACsABgBjAQEggAMADgAAANoH AgAGABcAMgArAAYAYwEBCYABACEAAAA3RTUxNjgyQjQ0QzMzODQ1ODk5RkEyQUZEODIyNTg4OQAe BwEDkAYAFCYAADgAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQC5Q2HQfqfKAR4APQABAAAABQAAAEFXOiAAAAAAAgFH AAEAAAAyAAAAYz1ERTthPSA7cD1IU1Q7bD1GSUxFLVNFUlZFUi1IUy0xMDAyMDYyMjUwNDNaLTQ0 MgAAAB4ASQABAAAAJAAAAExGOiBSRTogYWN0aXZlIGFudCBvbiBtZXRhbGxpYyBtYXN0AEAATgCA PPIEZafKAR4AWgABAAAAIwAAAG93bmVyLXJzZ2JfbGZfZ3JvdXBAYmxhY2tzaGVlcC5vcmcAAAIB WwABAAAAYwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAG93bmVyLXJzZ2JfbGZfZ3JvdXBAYmxh 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