Return-Path: Received: from mtain-md02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-md02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.86]) by air-df05.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDF053-5ef44b6d9d2fea; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:47:43 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-md02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0ABD538000118; Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Ndnnw-0005EK-RK for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:46:44 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ndnnw-0005EB-C7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:46:44 +0000 Received: from lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de ([130.83.156.232]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ndnnu-0005GX-BP for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 16:46:44 +0000 Received: from FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de (File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de [130.83.212.129]) by lnx503.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/HRZ/PMX) with SMTP id o16GkdNg022503 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:46:41 +0100 (envelope-from schaefer@hst.tu-darmstadt.de) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de) by FILE-SERVER-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de with AVK MailGateway; for ; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:46:39 +0100 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:46:39 +0100 Message-ID: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1AEC@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1AEC@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Thread-Topic: active ant on metallic mast Thread-Index: AcqnLBzyrShBW58pQ76YPb9JbK7HfgAGwooB References: <12077821.1264946261487.JavaMail.root@wamui-cynical.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1ACF@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> <4C25D51A6FE646D5B8D9D37C87EA6BBC@lindavideo> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1AD4@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> <0A1CC2C5367040E284D30F87A4967547@lindavideo> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1ADD@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> <001e01caa508$f7157360$8cd9160a@EFREMOV> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1ADF@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_Sch=E4fer?= To: X-AVK-Virus-Check: AVB 19.717;31.01.2010 X-PMX-TU: seen v0.99a by 5.5.9.388399, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.2.6.163624 X-PMX-SPAMCHECK: outgoing mail X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAA74B.F40F57B9" Subject: LF: active ant on metallic mast X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/54546 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60564b6d9d2d6d19 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA74B.F40F57B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roelof, LF, =20 Roelof, why do you think that this is the case? Interesting Question! "Won= 't work" means "Won't work properly" it assume. There will be a signal but= perhaps it is not optimal. And why could this be the case? If the applica= tion is in a metallic housing that is mounted to a metallic mast, the capa= city of the "ground electrode" against the environment must be very high= (can be seen as infinite, i assume), compared to the active element (gate= of the FET). Perhaps there will also be a better coupling to qrm sources?= I also have to make some measurements. The antennas we use are comparale= i think. So we could share (all) share our experiences :-) =20 A special question comes up when a optic fiber cable is used, since in a= coax application there remains a high C of the ground electrode, even whe= n a symmetrical transformer is used (since the active element has just a= few pF to the far field). That special question is: What will happen, whe= n the case/ground electrode becomes small against the active element (e.g.= circuit in SMD, small battery inside)?! Will there be a change in the opt= imal C of the active element to the far field? I assume, then, one has to= define an optimal C ratio of both electrodes. Will it behave as a short= dipole? And what about a short vertical (30cm) active antenna that is dir= ectly placed on the ground with a almost ideal conducting ground plane, e.= g. aluminium foil (out of the household) in a radius of 1m (ignoring the= local qrm problem, so e.g. in your garden, apart from the city)? =20 On my new qth i made first steps to receive LF with the active antenna mou= nted just 2m above ground but hung up on a wet tree. Results were vy bad.= I thought that SNR could be better when increasing the active element sin= ce signals were weak (DCF39 at S7), but it wasn't. The optimal length was= still 30cm. That seems not only to be "sufficient" but rather optimal! So= less and more is worse, unaffected by the hight above gnd? =20 I think one has to imagine the E-Field lines that are going through the am= bience. The fieldstrength seems just to be very small in a lossy environme= nt (on my hill, where no trees can be found, the antenna was also 2m up an= d DCF39 was S9+20). So hight above ground seems to essencial, even without= local qrm. Each decrease of input signal can be compensated by more gain= but SNR decreases, of course. =20 What are your ideas to these thoughts? What do you think will happen if th= e ground-electrode-C becomes small against the C of the active element? Wh= at will be the optimum C for both? Will the electrodes have the same "impo= rtance", like as a short dipole? Questions over Questions ;-)=20 =20 Recently i had the idea to test that with a variable antenna of a /p UKW= radio, perhaps two for each electrode. That will be interesting to play= with ;-) =20 73!! Stefan/DK7FC ________________________________ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Roelof Bakker Gesendet: Sa 06.02.2010 13:53 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: Re: LF: AW: Re: test signal wanted Hello Stefan, Probably a bit late, bit I have been told that an active whip won't work= =20 well on a metalic mast. I never tried it myself (still on the to do list) due to lack of a=20 suitable mast. 73, Roelof, pa0rdt ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA74B.F40F57B9 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IigQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAIAAAAExGOiBhY3RpdmUgYW50IG9u IG1ldGFsbGljIG1hc3QACAsBBYADAA4AAADaBwIABgARAC4AJwAGAFUBASCAAwAOAAAA2gcCAAYA EQAuACcABgBVAQEJgAEAIQAAAEU5NUQ1RTE1MzBDRDBFNEZBMjY3NTUxQjc3Rjc4N0Y0AEEHAQOQ BgCIFwAAOAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5ALlXD/RLp8oBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAATEY6IAAAAAACAUcAAQAA ADIAAABjPURFO2E9IDtwPUhTVDtsPUZJTEUtU0VSVkVSLUhTLTEwMDIwNjE2NDYzOVotNDM4AAAA HgBJAAEAAAAjAAAAUmU6IExGOiBBVzogUmU6IHRlc3Qgc2lnbmFsIHdhbnRlZAAAQABOAIDVfVYr p8oBHgBaAAEAAAAjAAAAb3duZXItcnNnYl9sZl9ncm91cEBibGFja3NoZWVwLm9yZwAAAgFbAAEA AABjAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAb3duZXItcnNnYl9sZl9ncm91cEBibGFja3No 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