Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mj07.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mj07.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.164.91]) by air-dc03.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDC031-85ff4b82b1b91b2; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:32:57 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mj07.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 82B923800009E; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NjbCN-0002Pl-G3 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:31:55 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NjbCM-0002PT-H1 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:31:54 +0000 Received: from mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.48]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NjbCK-00039L-Ox for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:31:54 +0000 Received: from know-smtpout-4.server.virginmedia.net ([62.254.123.4]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20100222163146.BSPU4474.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@know-smtpout-4.server.virginmedia.net> for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:31:46 +0000 Received: from [86.31.219.178] (helo=desktop) by know-smtpout-4.server.virginmedia.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NjbCE-0003kq-Ay for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:31:46 +0000 From: "James Cowburn" To: References: <4B826B4F.9060202@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> <588613.30106.qm@web86502.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <57a24ca71002220822t3340ebc3p71f74b3cd9bcddf2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:31:46 -0000 Message-ID: <015901cab3dc$869cf210$0217aac0@desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: <57a24ca71002220822t3340ebc3p71f74b3cd9bcddf2@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: Acqz22lX0/sOC/FbS9K9fquuGBSMAQAAOIZw X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=ZtHxNT4mZm3rCuM0SmWmgWxeBwJsziC8EqOrwwVkrhA= c=1 sm=0 a=F3M5lZpKAAAA:8 a=HmCT5iXHAAAA:8 a=YVLYd_bNAAAA:8 a=spfw7PUuAAAA:8 a=fnYqA7hvAAAA:8 a=j6Q1dnSHAAAA:8 a=A06HpNCPAAAA:20 a=gjHbtiOjAAAA:8 a=tnJwMPGvWQne3beiP74A:9 a=NxWGx0_9xm7LQFMBjcYA:7 a=Ki0KVV2cG6xnfvf8kQsWU7FHHhEA:4 a=l7a6iXsAz5sA:10 a=VoFPz64Ki7sA:10 a=wk6s2zzMB60A:10 a=Nr7Pmq0tdocA:10 a=gA6IeH5FQcgA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=gBMKgfuXvLmqGGc9:21 a=F069Ruj0SsaQRLfR:21 a=HpAAvcLHHh0Zw7uRqdWCyQ==:117 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: RE: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039400c89ae4b82b1b61f42 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 All we need is a wire strung between K2 and Everest summits and fed fr= om base camp below? =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Warren Ziegle= r Sent: 22 February 2010 16:23 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz No license is required in the US below 9kHz. I agree with Mal its very difficult to radiate a signal on 137kHz, let alone 9kHz! --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:10 AM, ALAN MELIA wrote: > Hi as far as the Uk is concerned it is not allowed. You probably nee= d to contact Andy G4JNT for details he did approach the regulator at one ti= me maybe around 2001/2 when Geri was doing his tests the answer as I reme= mber was:- > Frequencies below 10kHz are not allocated by International Treaty bu= t we control all frequencies between DC and gamma rays, and no we will not= be issuing any licences for that region. > > I believe that was the RadioCommunications Agency things may be diff= erent now with Ofcomm. The best person to know whether an approach would be worthwhile would be John Gould G4WKL who nursed the 500k stuff through= . > > Alan G3NYK > > --- On Mon, 22/2/10, Stefan_Sch=E4fer wrote: > >> From: Stefan_Sch=E4fer >> Subject: LF: VLF_8.79 kHz >> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Date: Monday, 22 February, 2010, 11:32 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ok Roger, >> >> >> >> And do you know if f<9kHz is free for other countries in >> europe as >> well? What about the UK? >> >> >> >> If such a grounded dipole is best, than it is easy to build >> a big >> antenna without the problems we have on LF (getting the >> wire high above >> ground). So we also could try big/long antennas. Waht do >> you mean with >> amateur levels? Power range is clear, something arround >> 500W+-6dB. But >> the antenna? Sure, if you think about building an antenna >> in the >> garden, say 2x20m, is not very effective but what about >> 2x500m in a >> forrest, perhaps with the loading coils (which will be on a >> ferrite >> toroid i think) mounted 300m apart from the center? That >> could be >> interesting and easy to try. No tower, no earth radials, >> just 2 wires >> hung up on some trees and measured the impedance at the >> feed point, >> that would be a first step. >> >> This antenna will still be bad but what we are doing -on LF >> it is the >> same- is beeing fascinated to reach a good distance and >> make some >> contacts at very low frequencies, although it would be much >> easier on >> 40/80m... >> >> And so, if one would reach 50km with such a short dipole, >> the >> fascination would be enormous, isn't it? ;-) >> >> >> >> Has anyone, except Horst, tried such experiments as well? >> >> >> >> With the ground wave, one could reach the whole europe, i >> expect. But >> that are dreams... >> >> >> >> Stefan/DK7FC >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Am 22.02.2010 11:03, schrieb Roger Lapthorn: >> >> =A0 At this frequency, widely spaced,=A0grounded >> electrode pairs are >> probably the best "antenna".=A0 There are >> references to how these work in >> the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the >> 1960s, >> available on the internet I believe) and on one of the >> German ham sites >> (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0. >> >> =A0 Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair >> aim with modern >> signal processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur >> levels) available >> power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to >> submarines at >> 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas >> stretching for >> 100s of kms. >> >> =A0 73s >> =A0 Roger G3XBM >> >> >> >> >> >> =A0 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer >> >> >> =A0 Hello Horst, >> >> >> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some >> motivated OMs >> in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting >> field to >> test. >> >> >> >> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna >> configurations for that >> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an >> antenna >> tower. There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in >> series and in >> parallel. You do not need to have that area beside your >> house. Nobody >> will see the wire and nobody will care about it. >> >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted >> in some >> trees on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and >> also 160m. >> The loop has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. >> Perfect >> matching from 160m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even >> tried >> matching on 2200m without a problem but with bad ODX >> results, of >> course. But if one would try 2x 10*100m on VLF, the ODX >> would be >> interesting... >> >> >> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i >> think ;-) >> >> >> >> What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some >> commercial >> VLF stations in that range? Are there some? >> >> >> >> 73, Stefan >> >> >> >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation >> ;-) >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker >> >> >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 >> >> =A0 =A0 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> >> >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hallo Stefan, >> >> >> >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in >> DL the range >> <9kHz is free. >> >> >> >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a >> while I got >> a letter which confirmed that. >> >> >> >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a >> licence. You do not >> need one. >> >> >> >> There is no limitation of technical parameters like >> bandwith or power. >> >> >> >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. >> >> >> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT >> >> >> >> Horst >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! >> >> =A0 =A0 http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> =A0 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ >> >> =A0 http://www.g3xbm.co.uk >> >> =A0 http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM >> >> G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL >> G11088 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------- >> Dipl.-Ing. Stefan Sch=E4fer >> Institut f=FCr Umweltphysik der Universit=E4t >> Heidelberg >> Im Neuenheimer Feld 229 >> D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany >> >> schaefer@iup.uni-heidelberg.de >> Phone: (+49) (0)6221 546387 >> Fax: (+49) (0)6221 546405 >> >> www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de >> >> >> > >