Return-Path: Received: from rly-dd04.mx.aol.com (rly-dd04.mail.aol.com [172.19.141.151]) by air-dd08.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINDD082-b764b2950b922b; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:27:49 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dd04.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDD048-b764b2950b922b; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:27:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NL1LY-0001IN-JD for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:23:48 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NL1LX-0001IE-Mo for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:23:47 +0000 Received: from smtp824.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.234]) by relay3.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NL1Nx-0006lw-5K for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:26:19 +0000 Received: (qmail 82319 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2009 21:26:11 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:In-Reply-To:Importance; b=rNGCXXVgfrjwvHqIKwOTRe1TYZwvh/BtekjqHGXw6niC9r/HKB4cWwLRUmC/BLUOO5MsZlJdVeG1quWprX2IvohqeI30naD1itCqpUsXNxjlEeHh4piN/WezXzZEczVXkUMGIQefEOfzB2NjgfZIvBJdBzp7lVbPzDMSGtlnqpU= ; Received: from unknown (HELO aquarids) (ganymede444@86.146.214.19 with login) by smtp824.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 2009 21:26:10 -0000 X-Yahoo-SMTP: JSvqNSWswBBXc9Mk_Vd71RtGz2bViJtuZMADdmi78eLqBj_R7.fL X-YMail-OSG: 83F_OGIVM1ndeqvslgbEidXSHY0Av7QaartztZnqhqiiHgMwaYORiMLEtN8lr0DBExe.R3TI1Ul94f4Sf9uni6irJL3SDkSXxT6gThDpV4f0WG6fagZ_s0TOMp169Z.BvQjKfT986Y0t0ido5j9sDhSQvqZQu4TBR_mUZe.ePN17ZggupOoM697gik540lGjIYpWJZ0mV3xQP1VC9v1fOZSeuY_G0UpxSl3len.hBwkOT_o5Cgsbzi4FTc1c5Dz2zkAVYyLwwO_zdbDn4yhWH5jDbRoLsY94z5mVlUf4sJdZSpU- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Dave G3WCB" To: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:26:33 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E828ACB3@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Importance: Normal DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: LF: RE: Noise cancelling by using optic transmission of RX signals Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA7E96.70EACA30" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=FROM_ENDS_IN_NUMS,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA7E96.70EACA30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Stefan. This is very interesting. I have a MiniWhip on a pole some distance from the house, and it seems that most of the interference (ADSL hash) seems to be re-radiated by the coax outer and picked up by the antenna. A relatively short optical link of one or two metres may still reduce the pick-up, as it would break the "copper" connection to the antenna. Alternatively, it might be possible to transvert the amplified LF signal up to a vhf frequency and then set up a remote RX some distance away. You could switch the power on and off by using a pressure switch from a discarded washing machine connected to the shack by a lenght of 6mm plastic tubing. Apply slight positive pressure to turn on the antenna circuitry! 73, Dave G3WCB IO91RM nr Windsor, S.E. England. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefan Schäfer Sent: 16 December 2009 16:51 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Noise cancelling by using optic transmission of RX signals Dear Lowfers, I want to start a new subject (for me it's new)... The last weeks I still had RX problems, either with the tx antenna or with the short E-flied RX antenna. I found out that the noise was/is generated by my notebook which made RXing difficult, even in regions without any else local QRM (what could almost bring me to shut down the PC and just do nice and easy CW QSOs without anything else! (but most traffic is in QRSS...)). Then I have done mni tests with many many ferrite cores (that I found in an older emc lab in our institute), e.g. 20x FT50-77 plus 20x FT50-43 plus 20x FT50-61 and e few others. I placed them all in series, partly in the near of the preamp and/or in the near of the RX. Sure, there was a significant reduction of noise but lastly the noise remains. Accidentally, during a test with my VFO connected to the same 12V supply of my preamp, I observed a strong line in the argo monitor EVEN without an antenna (short wire) connected to the VFO and when turned the amplitude to zero! That meant for me, the VFO and its supply is not suppressed enough and so some RF comes to the preamp by the coax and supply line! (the preamp is supplied by a battery). I thought, I can use this (normally unwanted) coupling path to test the blocking capability of the ferrite cores and so I tried it with all variations and later with an additional BIG ferrite core and many turns of RG174. As I meant, surely there is a significant noise reduction but the line in argo was still well visible! What I have done then (since 4 days) is using a coupling link by an optic transmission of the 137kHz signal between the preamp and my RX using a SFH750V as the TX Diode and a SFH350 as the RX and abt 20m of a fiber optic cable (yes, there are surely more suited components but these were available in the moment). These are also used as optic links into high end audio systems and therefore easy to get... Now, when placing the preamp on the same place then during the tests before and just changing the coax by the fiber optic cable, the line by the VFO was completely gone!! Just with an antenna connected to the VFO and high amplitude (and thus e real near-field “connection”) it came back. The overall noise level decreased to its absolute minimum during all the tests. Before I used this optic cable the only signal that could be received (out of the city with much much qrm) was DCF39 and DLF and so on. Now, DCF39 came out with much better SNR and I saw the first LF Stn at all, it was Ossi / OE5ODL transmitting his 5s in the evening (tnx! very nice SNR in QRSS3 mode). My conclusion is, that the qrm is always brought to the very sensitive E-field antenna by the coax, even when doing many usual suppression methods cause there always remains a residual coupling impedance between both sides of the cable. Furthermore a long coax cable, say 20m away from the shack carries some qrm to the near of the rx antenna so the effective distance to the shack is always reduced. One small disadvantage of this method is the need for a battery supply. My TX diode needs abt 20mA and is now working since 3 days with a 7AH Lead Acid battery. In the future I plan to use a stereo optic cable. Then, one could switch the preamp on and off by the seconds line doing it the opposite way. So, smaller batteries could be used, which is necessary when mounting the preamp to a shaky fiber mast if one does not want to change the batteries each few hours ;-) Signal distortion seems to be no problem, as I can confirm until now. Now, my K2 has an optical LF input! ;-) Perhaps this will give some ideas to the local qrm bothered stns who tried everything with ferrite cores, isolating transformers and so on without a satisfying result. NOTE: I do not know if anyone has tried this before and has written a publication about that. My goal is not to be the hero in inventions, to become popular and especially not to compete with anyone (like it seems to be usual in career/job to be the one who gets the pay rise) but just to share my ideas to those who are interested to try something new (?). I do not say that my solution is the best at all and so on! But, if it will help only one Lowfer getting new ideas and improving his station, and if this improvement results in more activity on the band, then it would have helped all of us! 73s es 55 de Stefan / DK7FC ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA7E96.70EACA30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,=20 Stefan.
 
This=20 is very interesting. I have a MiniWhip on a pole some distance from th= e house,=20 and it seems that most of the interference (ADSL hash) seems to be re-= radiated=20 by the coax outer and picked up by the antenna.
 
A=20 relatively short optical link of one or two metres may still reduce th= e pick-up,=20 as it would break the "copper" connection to the antenna.
 
Alternatively, it might be possible to transvert the amp= lified LF signal=20 up to a vhf frequency and then set up a remote RX some distance=20 away.
 
You=20 could switch the power on and off by using a pressure switch from a di= scarded=20 washing machine connected to the shack by a lenght of 6mm plastic= tubing.=20 Apply slight positive pressure to turn on the antenna=20 circuitry!
 
73,=20 Dave G3WCB IO91RM nr Windsor, S.E. England. 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefa= n=20 Sch=E4fer
Sent: 16 December 2009 16:51
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Noise cancelling= by using=20 optic transmission of RX signals

Dear Lowfe= rs,

I want to=20 start a new subject (for me it's new)...

The last=20 weeks I still had RX problems, either with the tx antenna or with th= e short=20 E-flied RX antenna.

I found=20 out that the noise was/is generated by my notebook which made RXing= difficult,=20 even in regions without any else local QRM (what could almost bring= me to shut=20 down the PC and just do nice and easy CW QSOs without anything else!= (but most=20 traffic is in QRSS...)).

Then I=20 have done mni tests with many many ferrite cores (that I found in an= older emc=20 lab in our institute), e.g. 20x FT50-77 plus 20x FT50-43 plus 20x FT= 50-61 and=20 e few others. I placed them all in series, partly in the near of the= preamp=20 and/or in the near of the RX. Sure, there was a significant reductio= n of noise=20 but lastly the noise remains.

Accidentally, during=20 a test with my VFO connected to the same 12V supply of my preamp, I= observed a=20 strong line in the argo monitor EVEN without an antenna (short wire)= connected=20 to the VFO and when turned the amplitude to zero! That meant for me,= the VFO=20 and its supply is not suppressed enough and so some RF comes to the= preamp by=20 the coax and supply line! (the preamp is supplied by a battery). I= thought, I=20 can use this (normally unwanted) coupling path to test the blocking= capability=20 of the ferrite cores and so I tried it with all variations and later= with an=20 additional BIG ferrite core and many turns of RG174. As I meant, sur= ely there=20 is a significant noise reduction but the line in argo was still well= =20 visible!

What I=20 have done then (since 4 days) is using a coupling link by an optic= =20 transmission of the 137kHz signal between the preamp and my RX using= a SFH750V=20 as the TX Diode and a SFH350=20 as the RX and abt 20m of a fiber optic cable (yes, there are surely= more=20 suited components but these were available in the moment). These are= also used=20 as optic links into high end audio systems and therefore easy to=20 get...

Now, when=20 placing the preamp on the same place then during the tests before an= d just=20 changing the coax by the fiber optic cable, the line by the VFO was= completely=20 gone!! Just with an antenna connected to the VFO and high amplitude= (and thus=20 e real near-field =93connection=94) it came back. The overall noise= level=20 decreased to its absolute minimum during all the tests.

Before I=20 used this optic cable the only signal that could be received (out of= the city=20 with much much qrm) was DCF39 and DLF and so on. Now, DCF39 came out= with much=20 better SNR and I saw the first LF Stn at all, it was Ossi / OE5ODL= =20 transmitting his 5s in the evening (tnx! very nice SNR in QRSS3=20 mode).

My=20 conclusion is, that the qrm is always brought to the very sensitive= E-field=20 antenna by the coax, even when doing many usual suppression methods= cause=20 there always remains a residual coupling impedance between both side= s of the=20 cable. Furthermore a long coax cable, say 20m away from the shack ca= rries some=20 qrm to the near of the rx antenna so the effective distance to the= shack is=20 always reduced.

One small=20 disadvantage of this method is the need for a battery supply. My TX= diode=20 needs abt 20mA and is now working since 3 days with a 7AH Lead Acid= battery.=20 In the future I plan to use a stereo optic cable. Then, one could sw= itch the=20 preamp on and off by the seconds line doing it the opposite way. So,= smaller=20 batteries could be used, which is necessary when mounting the preamp= to a=20 shaky fiber mast if one does not want to change the batteries each= few hours=20 ;-)

Signal=20 distortion seems to be no problem, as I can confirm until=20 now.

Now, my=20 K2 has an optical LF input! ;-)<= /P>

Perhaps=20 this will give some ideas to the local qrm bothered stns who tried= everything=20 with ferrite cores, isolating transformers and so on without a satis= fying=20 result.

NOTE:= = I do not know if anyone has=20 tried this before and has written a publication about that. My goal= is=20 not to be the hero= in=20 inventions, to become popular and especially not to compete with anyone (like it seems= =20 to be usual in career/job to be the one who gets the pay rise) but= just to=20 share my ideas to those who are interested to try something new (?).= I do not=20 say that my solution is the best at all and so on! But, if it will= help only=20 one Lowfer getting new ideas and improving his station, and if this= =20 improvement results in more activity on the band, then it would have= helped=20 all of us!

 

 

73s es 55=20 de Stefan / DK7FC

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CA7E96.70EACA30--