Return-Path: Received: from rly-mf01.mx.aol.com (rly-mf01.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.171]) by air-mf06.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINMF061-9404b27757f320; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:40:01 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-mf01.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMF016-9404b27757f320; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:39:45 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NKVhm-0002Bu-8K for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:36:38 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NKVhl-0002Bl-Jh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:36:37 +0000 Received: from blu0-omc1-s13.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.24]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NKVj5-0004em-08 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:38:02 +0000 Received: from BLU146-DS1 ([65.55.116.7]) by blu0-omc1-s13.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:38:07 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [60.27.206.155] X-Originating-Email: [hellozerohellozero@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: To: References: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E828AC66@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E828AC66@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:38:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2009 11:38:07.0310 (UTC) FILETIME=[123086E0:01CA7D7B] X-Karma: unknown: X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=0.815,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,NO_REAL_NAME=0.55 Subject: LF: Max power was qrss 3/10 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01CA7D7B.10CD7470" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5.3.00/0 ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01CA7D7B.10CD7470 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0039_01CA7D7B.10CD7470" ------=_NextPart_001_0039_01CA7D7B.10CD7470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From memory, and Ill stand to be corrected - the higher power stations= Americas stations on 137Khz produced/are producing around 3W ERP (+= or minus 3dB for a ground constant Im having trouble with) from Marco= nis' and decent loops - I cant recall anyone running much more save= perhaps for VA7LF antipodes test crowd (again apologies if Ive calls= ign wrong), or Ed and the Russian teams. I know from the calcs and measurements this is about right for WD2XDW= in Oklahoma which ran on a good day/week, with the wind behind around= 40-50A of loop current, this from a Modded Purple Decca unit, again= from a fading memory running around 1Kw output. I was about at my eng= ineering limit with the V/m and loop current at this power in a suburb= an lot. Man, Im getting RF lackitus having not shoved anything up a coax on LF= for about 5 years Given my present licence a 10KW tx still would no= t afford my max permit allowable ERP level on 137 with my planned Ala= skan loop - but never say never. As far as noise sources are concerned from the PC - I really cant see= anything on the frequencies of choice and solely limited by external= out of my Faraday cage noise from the antennae =3D now, that's not= to say the Dell SMPSU's don't produce crud, and some of that does get= back, no matter how much I choke and decouple - but I must admit I= have a box of them and choose my AC Power supply model for the band/b= ands of interest - and select one that doesn't give me a sproggi where= its not wanted. Oh for some time to get a method of running and decou= pling all the lines/screen/mouse to and from the PC so its completely= quiet. Laurence=20 KL1 X WE 2 X Pee Kew. From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:03 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: AW: LF: "Gain" between qrss3 and qrss10? Dear LF,=20 I have done some further thoughts/questions about the "gain" between= the qrss modes. If the "gain" or better said SNR between qrss30 and qrss3 is 10dB, so= can I do a QSO to VK with 1W TX Power and an antenna efficiency of 1/= 1000 if I choose QRSS10000000000? That's a litte jokingly formulated= but you know what I mean. In other words, where are the limitations= of this rule?=20 In CW I think that rule cannot be valid because a dot in CW (say 20wpm= ) is much shorter than 0,3s but to my experience the "gain" compared= to qrss3 is not even 10dB. Furthermore a PC must be seen as a source= of QRM, especially when connected to the antenna system (e.g. for swi= tching a tx relay with the qrs-programm) and RX (even when using a ins= ulating transformer for the AF), and so it always brings a "negative= gain", even when one uses 10s of ferrite cores. =20 And: I always thought of the energy "waste" when applying 1kW (before= 6 yrs when I became qrv with a much worse antenna) to the antenna and= pumping 999,9W into the earth. But when I need 10x the time in qrss30= to do the qso with 100W, the needed energy is the same (compared to= 1kW in qrss3). So, qsos could be done much faster if choosing 10x the= power and stay in qrss3. The additional advantage would be, if I try= to do a TA QSO I could just stay in the region of 137.7 and those who= are qrv in qrss3 and only watch the qrss3-sector would get a nice sig= nal and thus more fascination for the LF-hobby (I often think about th= e LWLs watching my transmission when no one is answering my call ;-)).= In sum, the needed energy (=3Dmoney) is the same but the needed time= would be 10x less. Of course, there would be some problems like partial discharges due to= the high voltage at the antenna and for 10kW the kitchen stove must= be connected in parallel, that could cause QRM with the XYL... ;-) Bu= t generally it would be interesting!?=20 What is the maximum power that is applied to an antenna yet? What have= you heard yet? I have applied 1kW in a bad antenna (=3D> abt 100mW ER= P), so 10kW would be possible when considering to stay in the legal li= mit. 10kW would be possible since one doesn't need a ferrite core that= has to keep the power (in Class E mode). In USA it would be even more= easy due to the fact that the 110V of the mains could just be rectifi= ed. Then I would take some STW12NK90Z in parallel and a IXDD414 and tr= y it with 15A antenna current ;-) Sorry, but in that hobby it is really easy to become euphoric. 73 and hope for fine qsos for us J Stefan / DK7FC ------=_NextPart_001_0039_01CA7D7B.10CD7470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From memory, and Ill stand to be corrected= - the higher=20 power stations Americas stations on 137Khz produced/are producing = ;around 3W=20 ERP (+ or minus 3dB for a ground constant Im having trouble with) from= Marconis'=20 and decent loops -  I cant recall anyone running much more= save=20 perhaps for VA7LF antipodes test  crowd (again apologies if Ive= callsign=20 wrong), or Ed and the Russian teams.
 
 
I know from the calcs and measurements this= is about=20 right for WD2XDW in Oklahoma which ran on a good day/week, with the wi= nd behind=20 around 40-50A of loop current, this from a Modded Purple Decca unit,= again from=20 a fading memory running around 1Kw output. I was about at my engineeri= ng limit=20 with the V/m and loop current at this power in a suburban lot.<= /DIV>
 
Man, Im getting RF lackitus having not shove= d anything=20 up a coax on LF for about 5 years 3D"Sad  Given= my present licence a 10KW tx still=20 would not  afford my max permit allowable ERP level on 137 with= my planned=20 Alaskan loop -  but never say never.
 
As far as noise sources are concerned from= the PC - I=20 really cant see anything on the frequencies of choice and solely limit= ed by=20 external out of my Faraday cage noise from the antennae =3D  now,= that=92s not=20 to say the Dell SMPSU's don=92t produce crud, and some of that does ge= t back, no=20 matter how much I choke and decouple -  but I must admit I= have a box=20 of them and choose my AC Power supply model for the band/bands of inte= rest - and=20 select one that doesn=92t give me a sproggi where its not wanted. Oh= for some time=20 to get a method of running and decoupling all the lines/screen/mouse= to and from=20 the PC so its completely quiet.
 
Laurence
KL1 X  WE 2 X Pee Kew.
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:03 AM
Subject: AW: LF: "Gain" between qrss3 and qrss10?

Dear LF,

I have done=20 some further thoughts/questions about the "gain" between the qrss=20 modes.

If the=20 "gain" or better said SNR between qrss30 and qrss3 is 10dB, so can I= do a QSO to=20 VK with 1W TX Power and an antenna efficiency of 1/1000 if I choose=20 QRSS10000000000? That=92s a litte jokingly formulated but you know wha= t I mean. In=20 other words, where are the limitations of this rule?

In CW I=20 think that rule cannot be valid because a dot in CW (say 20wpm) is muc= h shorter=20 than 0,3s but to my experience the =93gain=94 compared to qrss3 is not= even 10dB.=20 Furthermore a PC must be seen as a source of QRM, especially when conn= ected to=20 the antenna system (e.g. for switching a tx relay with the qrs-program= m) and RX=20 (even when using a insulating transformer for the AF), and so it alway= s brings a=20 =93negative gain=94, even when one uses 10s of ferrite cores=85=20   

And: I=20 always thought of the energy "waste" when applying 1kW (before 6 yrs= when I=20 became qrv with a much worse antenna) to the antenna and pumping 999,9= W into the=20 earth. But when I need 10x the time in qrss30 to do the qso with 100W,= the=20 needed energy is the same (compared to 1kW in qrss3). So, qsos could= be done=20 much faster if choosing 10x the power and stay in qrss3. The additiona= l=20 advantage would be, if I try to do a TA QSO I could just stay in the= region of=20 137.7 and those who are qrv in qrss3 and only watch the qrss3-sector= would get a=20 nice signal and thus more fascination for the LF-hobby (I often think= about the=20 LWLs watching my transmission when no one is answering my call ;-)).= In sum, the=20 needed energy (=3Dmoney) is the same but the needed time would be 10x= =20 less.

Of course,=20 there would be some problems like partial discharges due to the high= voltage at=20 the antenna and for 10kW the kitchen stove must be connected in parall= el, that=20 could cause QRM with the XYL... ;-) But generally it would be interest= ing!?=20

What is the=20 maximum power that is applied to an antenna yet? What have you heard= yet? I have=20 applied 1kW in a bad antenna (=3D> abt 100mW ERP), so 10kW would be= possible=20 when considering to stay in the legal limit. 10kW would be possible si= nce one=20 doesn't need a ferrite core that has to keep the power (in Class E mod= e). In=20 USA it would be even more easy due to the fact that th= e 110V=20 of the mains could just be rectified. Then I would take some STW12NK90Z=20 in parallel and a IXDD414=20 and try it with 15A antenna current ;-)

Sorry, but=20 in that hobby it is really easy to become euphoric=85

 

73 and hope=20 for fine qsos for us = J

Stefan /=20 DK7FC

=  

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