Return-Path: Received: from rly-dg10.mx.aol.com (rly-dg10.mail.aol.com [172.19.151.94]) by air-dg05.mail.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILINDG054-5fc4ace0ff12bb; Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:14:52 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dg10.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDG107-5fc4ace0ff12bb; Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:14:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1MvvcV-0004tg-3p for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:13:35 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1MvvcU-0004tX-MO for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:13:34 +0100 Received: from smtp819.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([77.238.189.19]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Mvvb4-0007gK-GI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:12:07 +0100 Received: (qmail 89539 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2009 16:13:17 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=0rvX6x0TC+BRxu6ZVSqPyx65HUyAH70htga02ivO9cvCwLbTQw2WdSz/8yWqqwRJK8LtR5RKQoYWR4k7YG8bD+Jrcu5ASTp/IQZWJgUb0o+zZNKhnaUEUkmK1YH/rFjJJeitIyZreAFq460MmP+zszktplh+AmdxVbnQvPU1a7g= ; Received: from unknown (HELO JimPC) (james.moritz@86.179.130.177 with login) by smtp819.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 2009 16:13:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-SMTP: qKIhhNCswBB2TTHr2BORWcGGR2mpopxhCcunGIxpCKQYiG07Q7UOhNo- X-YMail-OSG: 59lLkDEVM1ls5ZKTScmhyhrBnBeKkcFa8KbgYSTmSKYMPgMEMa.1IUx.kM7lKsvz1ZkIjuZnKWynq4cT1lQkZHbR.AWEeDOjTt8R3rw5MJqR0jsgYahIUe0jAjIqOaH1bL25hkfqukpZqeMOlg2EEghzISeAUuTnyn0S1bI2dc_JTVQadL48RiP8unqQ8qcRzC2YxOUeaU0vatLbJ7ee2U0bqUwtKyXqVVcnESW5nd9M4P.flN8kQGEU2lKvdyg1F12vNOVpNGFyutzDz7BSvDQec.mlCjb2UeJn X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: From: "James Moritz" To: References: <1034F871DB99454AB819054B51F39B19@IBM7FFA209F07C> In-Reply-To: <1034F871DB99454AB819054B51F39B19@IBM7FFA209F07C> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:13:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-Karma: unknown: DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: LF: Re: ERP at LF Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 Dear Chris, LF Group, G4AYT wrote: ...> comments referring to a stations ERP by various operators : 'Estimate', 'Guess', 'Approx.', 'Reckon I'm fairly close to...', 'Approaching' etc. Nobody REALLY knows exactly! ...> This is true of any measurement - nobody can measure ERP or anything else "exactly"; the issue is how much uncertainty exists in the measured result. If you predict ERP based on antenna current and dimensions, my experience is that the "real" value from field strength measurements will be lower by about 0 - 6dB due to effects of the environment around the antenna. There is also the uncertainty in measurement of RF current, and the physical dimensions of the antenna, which might amount to a few dB, depending on how well it is done. For field strength measurements, the measuring antenna and receiver calibration can be done with amateur facilities to within 1 - 2dB with care. I have found measuring LF/MF field strengths is repeatable within about 1dB with a given TX antenna, however the ERP calculated from individual measurements varies by +/- a few dB, depending on the location where the measurement was done. So it has been my practice to calculate the ERP as an average between a dozen or so locations. This may sound vague, but it does mean being able to predict ERP and field strength over reasonable distances to within a few decibels, a fraction of an 'S' point. Compared with the way amateurs normally specify radiated signal strength, this is fantastic precision. In particular, the traditional way of stating TX output power and describing the antenna is quantitatively almost meaningless, especially where small antennas in less-than-ideal locations are concerned. Hence some stations "get out well" compared to other apparently similar stations using this type of description. ...>I don't know what the answer is, but it is clear that ERP at LF is far more complex than at VHF/UHF etc. where 'full size' antennas are generally used....> I expect this is true up to a point, although somebody specifying the gain of an antenna to the nearest 0.1dB doesn't mean the gain and ERP is actually known with anything like that accuracy. I think there is major difference between LF and VHF/UHF. At VHF/UHF, you would consider a signal with a particular ERP radiated by an antenna being subject to separate effects such as absorbtion, reflection, re-radiation, etc. by objects in the environment nearby which would affect the field strength at a distant point. At LF/MF, the surrounding environment is so close to the antenna in terms of wavelengths that it affects the impedance and radiation resistance of the antenna, and has to be considered as part of the antenna, with a direct effect on the ERP. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU