Return-Path: Received: from rly-mb12.mx.aol.com (rly-mb12.mail.aol.com [172.21.131.170]) by air-mb06.mail.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILINMB062-d3f4a98e869263; Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:36:11 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-mb12.mx.aol.com (v125.7) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMB123-d3f4a98e869263; Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:35:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1MhJOh-0007Kq-Rz for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:34:55 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1MhJOg-0007Kh-VN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:34:54 +0100 Received: from blu0-omc1-s19.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.30]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MhJNq-0005XH-LC for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:34:03 +0100 Received: from BLU146-W28 ([65.55.116.9]) by blu0-omc1-s19.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:34:42 -0700 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [117.12.234.103] From: Laurence BY3A-KL1X China To: Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 00:34:41 -0800 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002901ca21bb$ba45ad90$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> References: , <002e01ca2057$32c9a5c0$0900a8c0@AM> <4A8B9246.29046.10FABD@dave.davesergeant.com> <20090819130355.252210@gmx.net> <4D0A429582694836812C0FB6FDCADEDD@mjusamsung> <002901ca21bb$ba45ad90$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2009 08:34:42.0167 (UTC) FILETIME=[8DFFF870:01CA2883] X-Karma: unknown: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_f2afccb7-3b7e-4970-b749-305f83a0ce21_" Subject: LF: Tree noise X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --_f2afccb7-3b7e-4970-b749-305f83a0ce21_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the late reply - Im playing catch up after a weeks lumberjacking= (I kid you not) -=20 =20 Im not sure I agree with you at all reference the effectiveness of loops= in trees. I certainly didnt struggle either - In fact it was so easy I co= uldnt believe the results at first - Certainly "Loops in Trees (c)" are= not perfect, but Im not in the isotropic realms of perfect illumination= so I do my best with what I got.- I just flogged my Rhon 45 towers. =20 Looking at the derived/realized ERP/field strength figures for my Oklahoma= and Alaskan loops both with an area of around 640 sq metres - and based= on ground wave measurement in near mid and far range, I dont believe I wa= s losing a lot at all ("at all" in relative terms).=20 =20 In the main lobe I was running around 1-3W ERP and given my circumstances= I dont think it was a poor peformer given I had zero/nada/zilch change of= putting anything up above tree height and it will be the same at WE2XPQ.= =20 =20 Im a tree hugger as a matter of necessity as everything else would become= a target for the rougue weekend flyers dropping out of the sky at my 200m= away landing strip. =20 back to the loop =20 500W 137kHz Daytime Ground wave CW readable in 1.8Khz BW/IC706 was over >6= 50miles from a mobile and magmounted probe which I dont believe is too sha= bby, and it got to ZL too, and AQC/LDO 6NM got back the other way (Im tryi= ng not to brag, but youll see the point) =20 Its horses for courses and as others have pointed out earlier we havent se= en a large amount of commercial or military LF tx loop in service designs= (save for one I know of near Puerto Limon Costa Rica) - But what I do kno= w that given the results of Wild Bills work and real time results of LF = "Loops in Trees (c)" that the military are taking another look at what ca= n be achieved and thats all down to experimentation by all this mob and ou= r Colonial friends. And what fun too - talk about a steep learning curve= dealing with >50amps of antennae current! =20 Regards =20 Laurence - Tianjin China We2Xpq Wasilla AK =20 ps I dont think Im a serious operator but there again I have a sense of= humor too, at times. =20 > From: g3kevmal@talktalk.net > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:29:09 +0100 > Subject: LF: Re: Re: Tree noise >=20 > Like I have said in the past several times I am surprised how many LF/MF= =20 > operators have loops strung from tree branches and in amongst trees and= =20 > claim they are perfect, especially those in the USA. > Most of the rf is being absorbed by the trees, perhaps a little escapes.= =20 > Compared to loops little and large sited out in the clear they are poor= =20 > performers at LF/MF > Serious LF/MF operators should look for a QTH out in the clear avoiding= =20 > serious obstacles like trees and close in buildings. Why struggle to=20 > reinvent the wheel when one has options like CABLE, MOBILE PHONES AND TH= E=20 > INTERNET to surf and chase LL DX. >=20 > g3kev >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Mike Underhill" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:44 AM > Subject: LF: Re: Tree noise >=20 >=20 > > Dennis (DL6NVC) > > Please could you try your loop away from the tree. Preferably more tha= n 2 > > metres. I have found severe bio-electric(?) noise from trees from 3.5= to > > 500MHz.using loops, whips and UHF Yagis. The noise drops to almost zer= o=20 > > if > > the tree ambient temperature is below about zero Celsius. > > Mike - G3LHZ > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Dennis" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:03 PM > > Subject: LF: Re: 500kHz qrg range* THANKS! > > > > > >> > >>> 2. Most of the time there is a terrible broadband noise present in= my > >>> home location, which blocks everything below 14MHz and even degrades > >>> Polskie Radio I on 225kHz and BBC4 198kHz (with the rx loop outside= the > >>> house in a tree). That's the reason why I did not report any recepti= on=20 > >>> on > >>> 500kHz in the last weeks. There simply wasn't anything to receive... > >>> Although in a few kHz bandwidth this broadband noise of course does= not > >>> equal the fieldstrengh of a local broadcast station, the broader the > >>> filter, the higher the level, unneccesary loading the mixer. > >> > >> vy73 > >> Dennis > >> DL6NVC > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --=20 > >> Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate > >> f=FCr nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 > >> > >> > > > > >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >=20 >=20 >=20 > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date: 08/19/= 09=20 > 18:06:00 >=20 >=20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=3DPID23285::T:WLMTAG= L:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009=3D --_f2afccb7-3b7e-4970-b749-305f83a0ce21_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the late reply - Im playing catch up after a weeks lumberjacking= (I kid you not) -
 
Im not sure I agree with you at all reference the effectiveness of lo= ops in trees. I certainly didnt struggle either - In fact it was so= easy I couldnt believe the results at first -  Certainly "Loops in= Trees (c)" are not perfect, but Im not in the isotropic realms of perfect= illumination so I do my best with what I got.- I just flogged my Rho= n 45 towers.
 
Looking at the derived/realized ERP/field strength figures for my Okl= ahoma and Alaskan loops both with an area of around 640 sq metres -=  and based on ground wave measurement in near mid and far range, I= dont believe I was losing a lot at all ("at all" in relative terms).=  
 
In the main lobe I was running around 1-3W ERP and given my circumstances= I dont think it was a poor peformer given I had zero/nada/zilch change of= putting anything up above tree height and it will be the same at WE2= XPQ.
 
Im a tree hugger as a matter of necessity as everything else would become= a target for the rougue weekend flyers dropping out of the sky at my 200m= away landing strip.
 
back to the loop
 
500W 137kHz Daytime Ground wave CW readable in 1.8Khz BW/IC706 was over &g= t;650miles from a mobile and magmounted probe which I dont belie= ve is too shabby, and it got to ZL too, and AQC/LDO 6NM got back the other= way (Im trying not to brag, but youll see the point)
 
Its horses for courses and as others have pointed out earlier we= havent seen a large amount of commercial or military LF tx loop in servic= e designs (save for one I know of near Puerto Limon Costa Rica) - But= what I do know that given the results of Wild Bills work and re= al time results of LF  "Loops in Trees (c)" that the military are tak= ing another look at what can be achieved and thats all down to= experimentation by all this mob and our Colonial friends. And what fun to= o - talk about a steep learning curve dealing with >50amps of antennae= current!
 
Regards
 
Laurence - Tianjin China
We2Xpq Wasilla AK
 
ps I dont think Im a serious operator but there again  I have a= sense of humor too, at times.
 
> From: g3kevmal@talktalk.n= et
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009= 18:29:09 +0100
> Subject: LF: Re: Re: Tree noise
>
>= Like I have said in the past several times I am surprised how many LF/MF=
> operators have loops strung from tree branches and in amongst tr= ees and
> claim they are perfect, especially those in the USA.
&= gt; Most of the rf is being absorbed by the trees, perhaps a little escape= s.
> Compared to loops little and large sited out in the clear they= are poor
> performers at LF/MF
> Serious LF/MF operators sho= uld look for a QTH out in the clear avoiding
> serious obstacles li= ke trees and close in buildings. Why struggle to
> reinvent the whe= el when one has options like CABLE, MOBILE PHONES AND THE
> INTERNE= T to surf and chase LL DX.
>
> g3kev
>
>
>= ; ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Underhill" <mike@un= derhill.co.uk>
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>= Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:44 AM
> Subject: LF: Re: Tree no= ise
>
>
> > Dennis (DL6NVC)
> > Please cou= ld you try your loop away from the tree. Preferably more than 2
> &g= t; metres. I have found severe bio-electric(?) noise from trees from 3.5= to
> > 500MHz.using loops, whips and UHF Yagis. The noise drops= to almost zero
> > if
> > the tree ambient temperature= is below about zero Celsius.
> > Mike - G3LHZ
> >
&g= t; > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dennis" <Denn= is.Hennig@gmx.de>
> > To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>=
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:03 PM
> > Subjec= t: LF: Re: 500kHz qrg range* THANKS!
> >
> >
> >= ;>
> >>> 2. Most of the time there is a terrible broadba= nd noise present in my
> >>> home location, which blocks ev= erything below 14MHz and even degrades
> >>> Polskie Radio= I on 225kHz and BBC4 198kHz (with the rx loop outside the
> >>= ;> house in a tree). That's the reason why I did not report any recepti= on
> >>> on
> >>> 500kHz in the last weeks.= There simply wasn't anything to receive...
> >>> Although= in a few kHz bandwidth this broadband noise of course does not
> &g= t;>> equal the fieldstrengh of a local broadcast station, the broade= r the
> >>> filter, the higher the level, unneccesary loadi= ng the mixer.
> >>
> >> vy73
> >> Denn= is
> >> DL6NVC
> >>
> >>
> >&= gt;
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> >>
> >> --
> >> Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT= mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate
> >> f=FCr nur 19,99= Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> >>
> &g= t;>
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------= -----------------------------------------------------------------
>=
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
&g= t; Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database:= 270.13.61/2314 - Release Date: 08/19/09
> 18:06:00
>
>= ;

Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you= do online. = Find out more. =3D --_f2afccb7-3b7e-4970-b749-305f83a0ce21_--